Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

A railway company for example, does not go to the Governor in Council in order to have their rates approved before they finance their scheme. In all these cases you may trust to the Governor in Council being reasonable, that they will not arbitrarily change these rates from year to year. Any railway company is in the same position with regard to fixing its rates. I think the suggestion of my hon. friend (Mr. Sproule) is reasonable. It may not be in the power of the Governor in Council ever to touch these tolls again, and I think they should have power to change them when they think circumstances require it. It may be that the tolls twenty-five years from now should be very much less than they are now. The Governor in Council must have the right to interfere. My hon. friend says the Governor in Council has the right to interfere as to railways ; should he not have the same right in respect to these tolls ?

Mr. WADE.

There is this difference ; in regard to nine-tenths of the railways in the Dominion there is a recognized rate which is the maximum rate that railways are permitted to charge. Therefore, if a railway is being promoted, the parties have the right to assume that they will be permitted to charge the usual maximum rate throughout the Dominion. It is quite a different matter in regard to a bridge, because, a bridge being constructed under circumstances of this sort, there is no arrangement as to the tolls they may be permitted to be charged and in my humble judgment I believe it would be necessary for the parties to go to the Governor in Council before they could finance their scheme and ask what would be the maximum rate they could charge. I do not think that would be unreasonable. The Governor in Council has the power to say: We will fix you this rate unaltered for two or five or ten years but only for that time. The Governor in Council is at liberty to

use his discretion as thinks proper under Council before they are changed. The clause the circumstances. reads :

Mr. SPROULE.

If the hon. member for Annapolis (Mr. Wade) had been in this House a few years ago he would have remembered a discussion which took place in regard to the rates charged on the Victoria Bridge, Montreal. He would remember that it was contended that once the Governor in Council had fixed the rates he could not change them, and notwithstanding the fact that the rates charged then were much too high it was contended that the Governor in Council could not lower them. It is to avoid such a thing as that occurring in the future that we ask for the insertion of this provision. There is another thing which I would like to mention. We have a Minister of Railways and Canals and there are other members of the government who are responsible for looking into railway Bills and Bills of this kind. We should hear from them upon the subject. I am quite sure if the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals was here he would agree with us, and put in a clause to regulate the tolls for foot passengers and other traffic.

Mr. WADE.

These are the words that he suggests.

Mr. SPROULE.

It seems to me very uncertain what the words are, because some hon. gentlemen say these are not the words that were put in by the committee. I think the hon. member had better accept this amendment, because I think that finally the Bill, if it passes, will pass with this clause in. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask him to accept the clause, and if the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals were here, I am sure he would insist upon it.

Mr. GALLIHER.

Mr. Chairman, it seems to me, if I understand aright the amendment proposed by the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule), that it would practically impose upon the government the duty of regulating the tolls from time to time, not giving them the privilege of doing it, but imposing upon them the duty of doing so. Instead of putting in this clause suggested by way of amendment I believe that if we simply inserted the word ' control ' making it read ' subject to the control ' it would meet every objection that has been raised, because the word ' control,' in itself, without limitation, means absolute control. If the Governor in Council has the control of these rates, he has the absolute control unless it is limited by legislation and he can fix the rates from time to time.

Hon. Mr. TISDALE.

Here is the Bill prepared by the_ Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) in regard to telephones and in it lie places a clause giving the Governor in Council power to regulate tolls, saying that they must be approved by the Governor in

Mr. WADE.

Every by-law fixing and regulating tolls shall be subject to revision by the Governor in Council, from time to time after approval thereof.

Why would he do that if there was no doubt, because this is the same principle ? I have not had as much practical experience as the hon. member for Annapolis has had, but I have always understood that this was one of the vexed questions under the Railway Act, because, when the maximum rate was once fixed the railway companies have never wanted to change. But here, in this proposed telephone Bill, the hon. Minister of Justice proposes that this approval shall be necessary, and I think very wisely. He put it beyond peradventure. I quite agree with the hon. member for Annapolis, and that never struck me until he mentioned it, that it might affect railway companies in making through rates because bridge tolls might be of a nature which would make it extremely difficult for them to carry out their arangements. But, if the hon. gentleman is right in his contention that the Governor in Council always has the right to change railway traffic arrangements and rates after they have once been approved, then there would be nothing in his argument that that might injuriously affect the financing of the company. I do not know whether this is so or not but I do hope that when the Railway Act is consolidated the Minister of Railways and Canals, or parliament, will see to it that that question shall be settled and that the Governor in Council shall not only have the right to approve of the rates, but from time to time to alter them if there is any question about their alteration. I think probably the words that my hon. friend proposes to put in would enable the Governor in Council to change these rates, and I cannot see why, if they are not sufficient he should object to putting in the words ' from time to time ' to make it clear.

Mr. WADE.

No such provision, as far as I know-of course, I may be entirely wrong about this because I am not familiar with all the bridge Bills that are before the House-but no such provision as is now being sought to be incorporated in this Bill, has been asked for in regard to any other bridge Bill.

Mr. SPROULE.

Yes it has.

Mr. WADE.

I am told that there has been no such provision proposed, and if I am wrong I will vacate my words. I can see difficulties in the way of putting in the words that are suggested, and these difficulties are to my mind difficulties which may be of much importance to the company.

I am willing to assume this position that if any provisions similar to this have been included in the other Bills I will agree to this. I can see where it may be fatal to the

interests of the company and I do not want it to go in unless it has been included in other Bills.

Mr. SPROULE.

Let us rise, and report progress and we can find out.

I was not present at the committee when this Bill was discussed. Probably the Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Blair) has had the matter under consideration and if the usual provisions in the bridge Bills are included in this that is all that is necessary. I would suggest that we proceed with the Bill, reserving this one point.

Subsection C of section 8 allowed to stand.

Progress reported.

Mr. A. BRODER (Dundas).

Mr. Speaker, just Before the House rose at six o'clock, I was interrupted in my remarks by the announcement made toy the Minister of Militia ; an announcement which I am sure every one in this House received with mingled feelings of regret and pride-regret for the loss of the lives of the torave Canadians, the news of which will darken many a home throughout the land ; and pride, that they died bravely fighting for the British empire. But, Sir, I thought when that announcement was made that it would be well for hon. gentlemen opposite to put up their colours somewhere, and to emulate the example of these brave Canadians. I was proceeding to remark that the American expansion of trade was commensurate with the expansion of English trade and commerce, and I shall read some figures from an American authority to prove the statement I make. I want to say this: That the importance of the

trade of the British empire to any country can be easily understood when it is realized that the largest political organization the world has ever seen under civilized government, the British empire, embraces 16,662,073 square miles containing 387,000.000 of people. The official figures given by the writer to whom I have referred, tell us that one-third of a century ago the American exports to Great Britain amounted to $225,090,224, and in 1900 they amounted to $533,819,545 ; an increase in thirty-three years of 137 per cent. During the same period, the American exports to British Africa increased 1,013 per cent; to British Australasia 421 per cent ; to British India, 1,126 per cent, and to British America 322 per cent. In 1900 the American exports to the entire world amounted to $1,394,483,082, of which they shipped to the British dominions $702,070,802, or in other words, 50 '34 of the whole, and to Great Britain alone, they shipped $553,819,454, or 28-28 per cent. During the same year the United States exports to Germany and to all German colonies were 13-43 per cent; to France and to all French colonies 6-22 per cent ; to Italy 2-31 per cent; and to Russia three-fourths of one per cent.. I want to say here that while hon. gentlemen opposite say so much about the change in British sentiment and the increased trade in consequence of that ehange, let me point out that Russia, a country that has been particularly friendly with the United States for thirty years only takes three-quarters of one per cent of the American exports. The Austrian empire only took one-half of one per cent of the export trade of the United States. In other words, the American exports to Great Britain are four times the value of those to Germany ; eight times the value of those to France ; twenty-one times the value of those to Italy; seventy times the value of those to Russia, and a hundred times the value of those to Austria. The American exports to Great [DOT]Britain are more than double the American exports to Germany, France, Italy, Russia and Austria combined ; one-third greater than to all the continent of Europe ; and more than the American exports to all the rest of the world.

In view of that, I wish to say that the gentlemen who have control of the government of this country to-day, should wake up to the necessity of endeavouring to get control of our share of that great market which is now being occupied by the United States. It is a singular fact that notwithstanding the large area of agricultural lands in the United States, agriculture has ceased to be the dominant industry in that country, and manufacturing has become the domi-

gentlemen opposite should be ready to meet the English people half way in the interests of this country. If they would do this and if the responsibility were thrown upon the colonies of furnishing England with agricultural products, there would be a great increase in the acreage of wheat in this country in the very near future. If our Canadian farmers were aware that that market was there waiting for them, he would set about the task of furnishing it with all the agricultural products it can absorb. If there is one motto more than another that ought to be the watchword of every true Canadian, it is this : ' Back to the soil.' I do not mean that in any narrow, but in the widest possible sense. If we ever want to foster Canadian sentiment in this country, we must in every sense of the word, in our literature, in our trade, get back to the soil, and thus cultivate a true Canadian sentiment, not only in the interests of this country, but of the empire at large.