Mr. FRANK OLIVER (Alberta).

There is a great tendency in the House to run from special cases to generalities. It is impossible to bring up any question, let it be great or small, but forthwith the general politics of the country must be tagged on to it on one side or the other. This question of a proposed minimum valuation of horses certainly has two sides. It is brought up by those who are interested in breeding horses, as distinguished from those who are using horses. It is a question for the House to consider whether the interests of the country at large are to be best served by conforming to the idea of the rearer of horses or of the user of horses. We cannot be on both sides-at least all of us cannot be on both sides of every question all the time.

Oh, yes.

Mr. OLIVER.

Speak for yourselves, please. We cannot be on both sides of this question at once, but must take sides either with the rearers of horses or the users of horses. Now, as representing probably the largest and most populous agricultural constituency in this Dominion, I have no hesitation on this occasion, in taking sides with the rearers of horses as against the users of inferior horses. Hon. gentlemen who have seen fit to tag on an argument of free trade or protection to this question, who think they have rather struck oil in making an attack on those who are attempting to forward a particular interest of this great country, let me suggest that, while we ask that a minimum valuation be placed upon horses, we are not only willing but we are anxious that horses above a certain valuation shall be admitted free. I think every horse rearer in the country will agree to that proposition. Those who framed the tariff which is in force at the present time saw fit to admit certain valuable horses free, and everybody who is interested in the horse business in this country, agrees that that is a sound business proposition. Then, just as it is reasonable and desirable to admit certain superior classes of horses free of duty into this country, it is reasonable and desirable to exclude, as far as possible, certain inferior classes of horses from this country. Every practical agriculturist thoroughly understands that a good horse is good for the country and a poor horse is bad for the country. The less we have of the poorer class of horses the better. If we are going to great expense, as we are in all parts of the country, individually, municipally, provincially and nationally, to improve our stock of horses; and if we recognize, as we do, the great necessity of that improvement to the highest degree all over the country, then I ask hon. gentlemen, is it common sense to leave the bars down, to allow these efforts that we are making to improve our horses to be destroyed by the influx of an undesirable class of horses ? It

lias been pointed out that it is this class of horses of low valuation, which, because they are of low valuation do not receive the attention that is given to horses of greater value, that are really the cause of the introduction of diseases of various kinds into our country. These are the horses which frustrate the efforts which we are making to improve our stock both directly and indirectly. I repeat, it is not a question of improving the horse stock of this country by a simple manipulation of the tariff; it is a question of taking such means as may be reasonable and as are necessary to prevent the deterioration of our horse stock by certain means within our knowledge under our control. The suggestion is made that one way of doing this would be to place a minimum valuation on horses brought in from the United States. Any other means that will gain the same end will be entirely acceptable. If any better means can be suggested by any hon, member, I am safe in saying that those who are interested will be glad to accept them. We are not particularly anxious that the improvement shall be brought about by a minimum valuation. That seems a ready and easy means of arriving at this necessary result, to save the pasture of our prairie for valuable stock, to conserve the efforts we are making to improve our horses, to place the horse-raising industry of this country upon the highest level of the whole world, which is what we ought to endeavour to achieve, and what we can achieve, I believe, if reasonable measures are taken. It is quite possible that the country may prosper, and that the horse industry may prosper, whether the present minimum valuation increased or .not. But we take the liberty of placing before this House of Commons the facts of the case as practical men, representing a practical question, and we ask for practical action by the House with regard to mere theories.

Mr. C. B. HEYD (South Brant).

I l-ise to express my sympathy with the efforts that our western friends are putting forth to increase the quality of the Canadian horse. I do not object at all to the attitude they have taken. I believe the precautions that they desire are in the interests of the country. I rise for the purpose of drawing to the attention of the House an exactly similar state of affairs that happens to exist in Ontario. Last week the carriage makers of the Dominion of Canada came down here in a very strong deputation representing nearly $5,000,000 in capital, and they told the government that they were being subjected to unfair competition from the United States. They said, with the excellency of our work we have completely captured the Canadian carriage, cutter and buggy trade. The importations from the outside world are only $39,000 worth, only enough carriages to employ 25 men in their production. We can compete against the United States

in their own market, we are willing to put down the bars and let American carriages come in if they will take down the bars and let Canadian carriages go in. We can beat them in neutral markets, we can beat them in their own markets, we can beat them in Canadian markets, because we make a first-class carriage, out of the best material, of the best workmanship, and durable to a high degree. But what troubles us now is, not the importation of a high grade of American carriages, or horses, as our friends from the west might say, but an inferior class of slop work that is being made in the United States, where a factory in Michigan is turning out about 70,000 carriages per annum, made from the refuse of other factories, against which the Canadian manufacturer cannot compete. We say therefore, as our friends say, that we don't want you to raise the duty. The duty is high enough. We can fight against fair competition, but we cannot compete against the scrub horses or shoddy carriages. What we want you to do is to raise the minimum price of a carriage to $50, just as these gentlemen want the minimum price of a horse raised to $50 to keep out the scrub horses. Keep out this American slop work, and allow Canadians to have first-class carriages. Now, we are anxious to keep up the high quality of our horses in Canada. So are we also anxious to keep up the quality of our carriages, so that when a gentleman takes his lady out, or when a more reverend senior goes to church, he can travel in safety without fear of breaking down through being the owner of a slop made buggy. I approve the efforts our friends are making, I hope the government will listen to their request, and that when they raise the scale of horses to $50, they will also raise the scale of scrub carriages to $50.

Mr. T. O. DAYIS (Saskatchewan).

I hope the House will not think we are all protectionists in the North-west Territories because several hon. gentlemen from that country have advocated the raising of the valuation of a horse coming in from the other side of the line. One of the arguments used has been that we want to improve the stock. I do not understand how raising the valuation of a horse from $15 to $50 is going to have any effect in improving the stock in the North-west Territories, more particularly as we have thousands of the very same class of horses running all over the plains, belonging to the Blood Indians and other tribes. So I do not think that is any argument. Now, with reference to the horses that are coming in. I understand the Territorial Horse Breeders' Association have passed resolutions, which they have sent to every member from the North-west Territories, asking to have the valuation raised. My hon. friend from Toronto, who a moment ago said that he was interested in the horse raising business up there, admitted that there was a certain amount of benefit to the poorer clas-

ses of the community in the North-west by letting these same horses come in at the price they were coming in to-day. He said that farmers going in without much money would be able to buy a cheap team of horses. We know that we are getting into that country at the present time a good class of settlers, and I am pleased to say a great many of them are a better class of people, and are bringing in a better class of horses with them. Still there are parties coming in that cannot afford to buy expensive horses ; and if they need to be able to buy a cheap team of horses to do their work, I think they should be considered just as much as the Territorial Horse Breeders' Association, or the ranchers. [DOT]

Mr. POPE.

Can you break sod with one of these ?

Mr. DAVIS.

Yes. If you cannot break sod with one of them, you can break sod with three of them, if not with three, with four. Then again, as has been pointed out, you want horses for other purposes besides breaking sod. We have creameries in the North-west Territories, and people who live at a distance from them and who want to take their cream to a factory, cannot take a team of heavy Clydesdales for that purpose ; they have to have driving horses, and they get these horses very cheap. I think the government should make haste slowly in raising the valuation, of horses, more particularly as I do not see that it is going to have the effect of improving the stock in the Territories, inasmuch as we have the same class of horses up there ourselves. It is a well known fact that in Alberta to-day you can buy horses for $3 a piece, and they are not imported from the United States, they are raised by Indians up there. I may say it would not be a bad thing if the Indian Department were to take some action with reference to horses running round through the west, belonging to the Indians. It would have a better effect than raising the valuation of the few horses that are brought in from the United States.

Now, with reference to the remarks of my hon. friend from Brant (Mr. Heyd). I do not wish, Mr. Speaker, to go into a budget debate, or to deal with questions outside the one that is before the Chair. But I must say that when my hon. friend talks about a duty on buggies and that sort of thing, I want him to understand that so far as I am concerned, I have not gone back on the faith at ail. We do not manufacture anything at all in the North-west Territories, we have to buy our produce from the outside, and we get no benefit from protection at all ; though we are quite willing to bear our share of the heat and burden of the day and to pay a reasonable amount so long as it is a duty for revenue. But when any person commences to talk about imposing taxes, or doing anything else for the purpose of protecting any industry, Mr. DAVIS.

whether a horse industry, or a cow industry, or any other industry, then I shall certainly oppose it at every opportunity.

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) There is one view of this subject that I think is entirely wrong, and that is to place a fictitious value upon anything coming into this country, greater than the article has in the country from which it is exported. I think that principle is wrong from the very outset. I would suggest that those who want to keep these scrub horses out of the Dominion should adopt the American tariff, because no horses are admitted into the United States, so far as I can ascertain, at less than 30 per cent. If you put a specific duty on these horses you would get clear of the trouble.

Mr. R. JOHNSTON (Cardwell).

Mr. Speaker, as a producer of horses in the province of Ontario, I may say that the farmers in my part of the country feel very keenly the injury that is being inflicted upon them by the importation of scrub horses from the United States. These horses are taking the place of our own horses and greatly lessening the demand for good horses. You can get these imported horses in droves, yet, the hon. gentleman who spoke last tried to make out that the people of Canada wanted to import horses from the United States although there are thousands of Canadian horses running on the prairies of the west. These inferior horses, which are brought into the country and which are useless for all ordinary purposes, displace a great many of our own animals. On the same principle as those who are asking for protection in horses and carriages, we, as farmers, want a tax put on corn, because the free corn imported from the United States displaces a great deal of our Ontario coarse grains. When they want protection for their horses, we want protection for our grain, and I do not care whether they call it tariff, or whether they put a fraudulent valuation on their horses ; as long as they put a high duty on these scrub horses it will satisfy the farmers in Ontario. If the western people are not satisfied with the tariff let them put a fraudulent value on then- horses and let the duty be collected accordingly. I am very much pleased that this important question has been brought to the attention of the hon. members of this House. I think, without taking politics into consideration at all, that it will be only fair on the part of the government to impose a higher tariff on the horses which are shipped across the line and which are selling in towns all over the country all the way from $11 up to $30, and which are taking the places of home bred horses that we have gone to such expense to produce. I am glad to hear hon. members of this House calling for protection. or fraudulent valuation, I care not which it may be.

Mr. BOYD.

Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted to say a word

Mr. SPEAKER.

The hon. gentleman (Mr. Boyd) has already spoken.

Mr. POPE.

I think it is in order that some harness maker should speak. We have the horse and buggy but we have no harness.

Mr. BENNETT.

May I ask the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) if he has received a recommendation yet as to where this dock is to be placed in Barrie, and if so, whose recommendation and on what site does he intend to build it ?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC' WORKS (Hon. J. Israel Tarte). The chief engineer tells me that it will be at the foot of Bay-Held street, although I am not quite sure. We have not carried out the work so far because we have no deed of the wharf property. This is a new one.

Mr. TAYLOR.

This item is for reconstruction and repairs.

I move that the word be ' construction ' instead of ' reconstruction and repairs.'

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

You have fixed the place where the wharf is to be built ?

Yes.