March 10, 1902

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Mr. A. A. G.@

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. J. I. Tarte).

The discussion in which we are now engaged should be sufficient to prove that we have a great country, that we have a magnificent future before us. We have raised this year 100 million bushels of grain in Manitoba and the North-west Territories. We have a powerful system of 30*

railways, the Canadian Pacific Railway in fact is one of the great railway systems of the world. But in spite of its vast resources that system has been unable to grapple with the situation. Before the close of navigation that railway carried to Fort William

12,000,000 bushels of wheat. I am sorry to say that out of that 12,000,000 bushels nearly 5,000,000 bushels were carried to Buffalo, in other words, we have not beeu able to handle more than 7,000,000 bushels of wheat in Canadian waters and through Canadian channels. Evidently there is something wrong, we are not in it. My hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) has invited me to pay more attention to the situation in the North-west and a little less to a project which, in his estimation, would involve an expenditure of $300,000,000. Sir, where is the crazy man, where is the fool who contemplates an expenditure of $300,000,000 ? If there is such a man I would like to see his face, either in this parliament or out of it. True, I read in the ' Globe ' a few days ago a correspondence signed by Mr. Loughrin to the effect that I contemplated spending $300,000,000. Mr. Loughrin is well known to me. He is an agent of fire extinguishers. But upon my word, I am surprised that such an important paper as the ' Globe ' has given so much attention to the ideas of that gentleman. Able as he may be as an agent, I decline altogether to be responsible for the expenditure he wants me to incur on the French river. Nobody thinks of such an expenditure of money. What I said to the House on a former occasion, and what I say now is, that it is my belief that for four or five million dollars the French river could be improved and made a magnificent water way. Sir, I venture to make this prophecy, that before we are very much older that project will impose itself on the enlightened public opinion of this country.

I respect very much the views of the ' Globe '. The ' Globe ' is one of the great papers in this country, but, if I may be permitted to say in all deference to my confrere of the ' Globe,' the ' Globe ' has always been, to my knowledge, essentially an opposition paper. It is necessary to have opposition papers. I fully recognize the importance of opposition papers. The ' Globe ' has opposed nearly every large scheme or project that has been carried out in this country. The Canadian Pacific Railway had not a stronger opponent than the ' Globe ' for a time. It was very well then that such a large project should be discussed fully, and the ' Globe ' did that work. It was a useful work. The ' Globe ' is opposing the French river scheme. I make this prophecy that within a short time the * Globe ' as all men of good faith, will be obliged to come around and recognize that the best policy for this country is, Canada for the Canadians in every possible way and manner. Now, Sir, we have not carried

out every large project in the past, not because we have not been willing, but because it has not been possible to do everything at the same time. I have listened with very great attention to the suggestions made this afternoon. Some of our friends from the Nortli-west have invited us to build new railways, but, before making up our minds upon such projects we must think a little. We have already two important railways in Manitoba and the North-west. The Canadian Pacific Railway has done, as must be admitted, all that was possible to expect from a large corporation this year. They have not been able to grapple with the situation in a successful manner, but it is admittedly known that they have done everything they could. They bought as many locomotives as money could buy, they bought as many cars as money could buy. Now, they must add to their elevating power and rolling stock. The government have allowed them, under certain conditions, to issue new stock for $20,000,000 to increase their power all over the country. Our friends from the North-west and Manitoba will derive very large benefit from that increase of capital. It is not a favour that we have granted them. I strongly object to the word that has been used by some hon. gentlemen. It is no favour. The Canadian Pacific Railway have simply asked permission to add to their debt, because, by adding to their debt, they are increasing their power and strength for the benefit of this Canadian nation. Now, our friends in the North-west have a population of 400,000 people in round numbers. That is about the population of Montreal. We expect a great many things from them in the future. Canada is deeply interested in the development of the North-west, but our friends from that section of the country must not forget, as they were told to-day, that they are not the whole country.

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LIB

William Forsythe McCreary

Liberal

Mr. McCREARY.

You did not think we -were, when you only put $5,000 in your estimates for public works.

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.

My estimates have always been fair to Manitoba, the estimates of the country have always been fair to Manitoba, and if I call the attention of hon. gentlemen to other parts of the country it is only in answer to what the hon. member for East Assiuiboia (Mr. Douglas) has said. He has invited us, or a good many of us, to renounce the heresy of protection altogether. Well, I have never tried to hide my views upon that point. I do not intend to do that in future-not by any means. This country is one country. If we are going to be something, if we have confidence in ourselves, and if we have the hope that we will be a nation, we must be one nation from beginning to end, from one end of the country to the other. The country is prepared, I may say, to give to the North-west Territories cheap transportation, Hon. Mr. TARTE.

as cheap transportation as it is possible to give to them, but, they must not ask us to destroy our cities, or to destroy our national industries to do that. We could not do that. I am sure that I am expressing the feeling, the sentiment and the opinion of the vast majority of the Canadian people in stating the view I am stating here to-night. It is impossible not to admit that cheap transportation and a tariff, in a large national sense, go together. We will carry Manitoba wheat, Manitoba oats, and Manitoba products cheaply. The railways, and the fleets that will carry Manitoba wheat freely and cheaply, will carry to the west, the products of the east. We are not going,

I hope, to give up the idea of having winter ports. Portland is a nice port, New York is a fine port, Philadelphia and Boston are very nice ports, but we must have Canadian ports. We must have winter ports as we have summer ports. In other words, this country must be bound together solidly. There is no reason why the manufacturers of this country cannot supply our Manitoba and North-west friends with their products just as cheaply as the Americans will do it.

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LIB

James Moffat Douglas

Liberal

Mr. DOUGLAS.

Why do they not ?

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.

They do; I am going to take issue on that point with my hon. friend now. He, or some one else has asked the question : Why do not the Canadian manufacturers of agricultural implements sell us just as cheaply as they sell to the foreigner ? The question has been put in that way. My answer, is this : The American manufacturer sells outside of his own country, on many and many an occasion, cheaper than he sells in the American market, and the Canadian manufacturer does the same thing on many an occasion. But, 1 am free to admit that that does not prove that the Canadian manufacturer cannot sell just as cheaply as the American manufacturer can. The Canadian manufacturer, if he wants to compete in a foreign market, must meet his American rival in the foreign market at the same price. It does not prove that if the tariff were lower we would get our goads cheaper. Very far from it. My friend should never lose sight of this fact that if we would allow our Canadian industries to be slaughtered by the Americans, the very day the Americans would be masters of this Canadian market the prices would be raised and I, for one, as long as I have a seat in this parliament, will stand by the doctrine that we must take care of our industries with the same deep attention as we must take care of our transportation. Mr. Speaker, let us be Canadians. As I said a minute ago, we have a great future. What immense possibilities have we not ? When we remember that with a population of less than 400,000 souls in the North-west Territories, we have been able to produce this

year 100,000,000 bushels of grain, I say that we have possibilities that it is difficult to foresee or understand now. We must provide for railway facilities; we must provide lor elevating facilities. Our elevating power represents only 15,000,000 bushels and it is not available at all seasons of the year. At Fort William, the Canadian Pacific Railway have to-day, if I am well informed, an elevating capacity of but 5,000,000 bushels. I am glad to be able to say to-night that at this very moment the Canadian Pacific Railway authorities at Montreal are engaged in making arrangements for an addition of 4,500,000 bushels to their elevating capacity at Fort W'illiam. At this very moment while I am on my feet they are negotiating with a large firm in Buffalo for that addition to their elevating capacity. It will be so much gained. I have great hopes also that the Canadian Northern will bring relief to the situation.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROTJLE.

What is the capacity of the Canadian Northern elevator at Fort William ?

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.

I am not quite sure that their elevator is quite completed there, but it will be in a few days. It is about 2,000,000 bushels. Now, Sir, when our Canadian grain has reached Fort William and Port Arthur, are we to allow it to be carried to American ports ? Once more I call the attention of the House and of the country to that important question. We have no Canadian bottoms to speak of. I have already said in the House, and I say it again, that the Canadian bottoms on the lakes represent only about 4 per cent of the whole tonnage available for grain. I have here the names and number of the boats and they present only 4 per cent of the lake tonnage. What are we going to do ? What is the Canadian North-west asking the country to do V Hon. gentlemen from the west here have spoken of Duluth and they have reproached the Canadian Pacific Railway for not having sufficient facilities to bring the grain faster and faster and in larger quantities to Duluth. Duluth is not a Canadian port or a Canadian city. I fully recognize that in the present crisis our Canadian friends have to look for an outlet. They are justified in carrying their eyes to Duluth, but I say again that Duluth is not a Canadian port of a Canadian city and it is a standing reproach to all of us here that we have not sooner foreseen the great possibilities of the North-west. Why should Duluth receive 7,000,000 bushels or 8,000,000 bushels or 10,000,000 bushels of Canadian wheat. There is the port of St. John in the winter; there is even Halifax although it is further away, and in the summer months we have Montreal, Three Rivers and Quebec. We have all the ports on the Georgian Bay. I have been accused by some of our friends on the other side, that while I was making

a trip on the Georgian Bay I was in favour of everybody. I am for everybody on the Georgian Bay, and for the excellent reason that all the avenues of trade we have there are not too many to handle the immense quantity of traffic there is in store for us. We are only speaking to-night of Canadian grain, but we must remember that nearly all the centres of trade on the lakes-Duluth, Chicago, Milwaukee-are tributary to the St. Lawrence route. I am amazed and surprised; I am scandalized if I may use the word; when I see and when I read that there are . Canadians who decline to open their eyes to the great necessity for having all our Canadian avenues of trade exploited. Why, what have we to-day ? We have only our canals. My hon. friend from Saskatchewan (Mr. Davis) has invited us to close our canals because he says they are no good. He tells us that we must build railways from the North-west to the sea to carry our grain and that we should have no more waterways. If my hon. friend (Mr. Davis) will pardon me, I invite him not to repeat that statement. Our waterways are essential during the time they are opened. They are not sufficient for the reason that they cannot be opened for the whole year round, but I say that our waterways are the necessary implement of our national trade. All the products of Canada cannot be carried at one and the same time to a winter port. That is out of the question, and so our grain has to be stored somewhere and the great problem is to store it just as near to the seaboard as possible. Fort William is one point and Port Arthur is another. We will have other points. Lake Nipissing will be the next point. We will avail I hope of the harbours on the Georgian Bay.

I am glad to see that the Grand Trunk Railway authorities seem to have changed their views. Hitherto it looked as if they had made up their minds to stand by Portland, first, last and all the time. I am glad to have learned during the last three or four days that the Grand Trunk Railway contemplates a change of policy. Let us welcome that. Let us welcome Mr. Hays. Mr. Reeve who wap a Portland man is gone and we wish him all sorts of good things; but let us wish better for Mr. Hays, who I think we may welcome very soon as a Canadian for good. Well, Sir, if the Grand Trunk Railway Company make up their mind to stand by the St. Lawrence route, it will be a great help indeed to our national Canadian transportation. I do not think it is necessary to say much more to-night.

I want to raise my voice once more in this parliament to invite our friends from the North-west not to be sectional, but to remember that we wish well by them, and that we understand the great national importance of the vast territory and the magnificent heritage we have in the Northwest. But they must belong to this coun-

try. They must be Canadians in the broadest sense of the word. We must all be Canadians. Let them remember that we have different conditions existing in different parts of the country, and that we have industries that we cannot possibly sacrifice. My hon. fi'iend from V ictoria (Hon. Mr. Ross)-whom we are all glad to see in good health in spite of his old age cheered the sentiment that was expressed in favour of free trade. He cheers free trade every time it is mentioned in this House. Well, we all respect him very much indeed. We would all like to be free traders. I would like to trade with the whole world. But the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Ross) must not forget-he does not forget,

I am sure-that if his province enters today on the path of prosperity and development, it is because we have-1 do not say that we have gone back on free trade vjews-it is because we have not applied these views as severely as he contemplated them in the past.

This country must not stand by any theories. We are a people of business men, let us do what ordinary business communities do. If our American neighbours wanted to trade with us, if they were willing to give us advantages,,, we would be very glad to try to make some arrangement with them; but they do not want to do so. They would raise their tariff to sixty or seventy per cent, and they would make a slaughter market in Canada. Well, how could we allow them to do so ? I would like, I will say it again, to trade with the whole world ; but you cannot do it, because the whole world does not want to trade with you. Our friends from the North-west must not forget that the large cities are greatly interested in their future development, and we will stand by them every time. They must stand by us every time also. We will give them cheap transportation both by our summer and our winter ports. We are doing it now. I was very sorry to hear some friends on the other side of the House, especially the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Boyd), telling us that this government had not done anything. I do not think it is a boast in my mouth to say that the present government has given more attention to the transportation question that any other government has done in the past; and we have accomplished and are accomplishing more than any other government has done. I admit that the Conservative government built the Canadian Pacific Railway, and it was a great feat. Who denies it ? Nobody does. Now this government is engaged in the solution of the transportation problem. We are solving that problem now. The St. Lawrence is deepened and widened ; all the harbours on the lakes are being equipped ; the port of Montreal and the port of St. John are being equipped.

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CON

Nathaniel Boyd

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYD.

No wheat is going that way.

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LIB

Joseph Israël Tarte (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Hon. Mr. TARTE.

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.

Wheat may go there some day. The Canadian Pacific Railway to-day is taking wheat to the port of St. John direct from the west.

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CON

Nathaniel Boyd

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYD.

Not very much.

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.

Yes, a good deal of it. But why does the Canadian Pacific railway not take more grain there ? Because we have not enough elevator accommodation. When the season closed this year there was not one single bushel of wheat in the elevators at Fort William ; they were all cleaned out. Now, the Canadian Pacific Railway is taking millions of bushels of grain to our winter port; and when the line is improved, as it will be with the additional stock to be issued, it will take more traffic.

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CON

Nathaniel Boyd

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOYD.

Do I understand the hon. gentleman to say that they are taking millions of bushels this winter to St. John ?

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.

Yes, and more than that, they are taking every week over twenty-five cars of American meats, canned goods, and so on. The trade at St. John to-day is larger than it has ever been before, and when the Canadian Pacific Railway is improved, I have no doubt that the port of St. John wil receive an immense amount of trade. Our hon. friends from the North-west should not disparage Canadian ideas. I do not see any reason why the Canadian Pacific Railway should not take to the port of St. John, and even to the port of Halifax, a very large quantity of trade. I say even to Halifax, because my hon. friend the leader of the opposition will admit that the same quantity of trade cannot go to a remote port as to a near port. When the fast line shall be established-and it will be established, it is only a question of time-the port of Halifax will necessarily receive a large amount of perishable traffic, which will be a paying traffic. I wanted to say only a few words. The House indeed owes a good deal to my hon. friend from Eastern Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) who has brought to our attention that essentially national problem of transportation. So far as I am concerned, I believe in Canada from that standpoint as from all others. We only need to have enough confidence in ourselves to see the transportation of our products through Canadian channels in both summer and winter. We have only to stand by ourselves also to see our industries develop, so as to be as independent as a nation can be of any foreign nation.

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CON

Edward Frederick Clarke

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CLARKE.

Before the hon. minister takes his seat, during the course of his speech lie referred with satisfaction to a contemplated policy under the new management of the Grand Trunk Railway. May I ask him what winter port the Grand Trunk Railway will use ?

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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS.

I do not know as to the winter port. I. was speaking especially as to the summer port. For instance, Midland is one of the ports which I think they intend to develop ; and instead of sending their trade during the summer months to an American port, as they have been doing during the last two years, they will send it through a Canadian port.

Hon. WILLIAM ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) The hon. Minister of Public Works paid a high compliment to me, and expressed pleasure that I was healthy. Well, I am glad to say that I am ; but I want to define my own position on this question. I happened to be in this House when the purchase of the great North-west Territories was under consideration, and I may say frankly that I do not believe that any of those who were in the House at that time could foresee the greatness of the inheritance which we were acquiring. We from the east have as much interest and rejoice as much in the prosperity of the North-west as the people who reside in that great country, and we do not wish it to be said that we have any sectional views on the subject. I am one of those who were present when a platform was laid down by the Liberal convention held in this city, and I have never forgotten the principles of that platform to this day. A strict adherence to those principles, as far as possible, was the means of bringing the present government into power ; and the moment we recede from that platform, we forget what is due to ourselves, and what is due to our constituents. I do not at all despise or undervalue Canadian industries or manufacturers. I am pleased to see them occupying the position of prosperity that they do now, but the moment the present government begins to inflict higher burdens on the people they will do something that will lower them in the estimation and confidence of their friends. I am quite satisfied with the present tariff, because I do not think any one would be sufficiently insane to believe that this country is prepared for free trade pure and simple. A revenue tariff is necessary for the prosperity of this country. I am glad to find that the question of transportation is engaging the attention of the government. If our manufacturers are to increase their output, they must seek foreign markets as well as cater for their own. They must send their goods to South Africa and Australia, they must find out what are suitable for those countries, and be furnished facilities to carry our own products to other markets by means of steamers subsidized by our own government. I have a letter from Sydney, N.S.W., in which my correspondent states that that colony-not the commonwealth but New South Wales itself- is sending out five travellers-one to India, one to China, one to Japan, and to different other places in order to seek new avenues

for its surplus products, and that is what our Canadian people and manufacturers should do. They should show more enterprise, and find out what markets can be had for the goods they can supply. I did not intend to speak on this subject at all, because the question will come up in a different way and in more ways than one before the session is over, but I was called to my feet by the remarks made by the hon. Minister of Public Works when I cheered the idea of free trade. Why should the farmers of the North-west be compelled to buy Canadian agricultural implements, if it is in their interest to buy their agricultural implements from the Americans. If they buy from the Americans, it is because they find it more advantageous to do so. It is no doubt because the American manufacturers begin to understand what our people require and give them better terms, because they give them more time to pay and are perhaps not so sharp in their dealings with them as are our Canadian manufacturers. I understand that some Canadian manufacturers have treated some of the earlier settlers in our Northwest perhaps not as considerately as they should have done. I am not in the slightest degree alarmed at. the amount of American manufactures which come into this Dominion. Our people are simply buying where they can get the goods on the best terms, and will buy from the Canadian manufacturers when they can sell them what they require as cheaply and on as good terms as do the Americans. I am not going to deny my free trade principles, as far as they can be carried out, with due consideration for the revenue we require, and the moment the present government begins to increase the tariff, let me say that it will then be taking a step in the wrong direction.

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CON

William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. R. BROCK (Centre Toronto).

It is not often that I am able to agree with a member of the present reform government and on this occasion I rise to do so with a great deal of pleasure, for it is really a pleasure to find that common sense will sometimes prevail even in the present Cabinet. I endorse, to a considerable extent, the remarks made by the Minister of Public Works this evening. I endorse those remarks which were distinguished for their common sense. The hon. gentleman who has just spoken (Hon. Mr. Ross), with the distant voice of the past, remembering old things, forgetting that this country is moving, cannot possibly have listened to the voice we heard this evening from our great North-west. No government can disregard that voice and continue in office. We have heard from the farmers of the North-west. They are making great demands on this country, which we are all very much inclined to meet as far as possible. All we ask of them is, as the hon. Minister of Public Works has done, to be reasonable. We ask of them to remember the other provinces. We ask them to re-

member the province of Ontario from which many of them have come. We know what were the struggles of the farmers of Ontario for many long years. No government chopped down the trees and cleared the land for them. But the farmers of the North-west have been placed in possession of a country, when a man can plough the ground at once and raise a crop the very next year. Should they forget their predecessors of Ontario, who spent ten, twenty, thirty years of their lives in clearing their land, and who, when their lands were cleared, were, many of them, old rheumatic men. These are the men for whom I have very great respect, and I would ask the Northwest to be reasonable in their demands. The farmers of the North-west demand that the duty be taken off farming implements. They are making great demands upon the government, to which the government never can acccede. Let them be reasonable. The North-west is not a poor country. It does not desire to come here as a beggar, and I would ask the people of the North-west to remember that the bankers in the older provinces have done a good deal to assist them in moving their grain. The merchants in Montreal, Toronto and elsewhere are carrying very heavy loads very often for these farmers of the North-west. Do they not receive every day letters of apology from their western customers instead of remittances in cash. Therefore I would ask our farmers in the North-west to be a little reasonable and to remember the very wise words that have fallen from the Minister of Public Works. If you would ruin the manufacturers of Ontario and Quebec, do you suppose then that the Americans would sell their goods cheap ? My hon. friend from Victoria (Hon. Mr. Ross) looks upon the Americans as great friends because they sell cheap. But how long would they sell goods cheap if they did not meet competition on this side. How long will they sell goods cheap here if they are not meeting competition on this side ? I can assime you that at the present time, as a merchant, I can go into the United States and buy goods cheaper there to be delivered in Canada than the American merchant can buy them for consumption in the United States. That is constantly done. Their overplus is thrust on this country continually. And I only regret that the leader of the government, whom we respect so much has not had more commercial training and knowledge that he might be able to see through these matters. We are not endeavouring to impose on the merchants and farmers of the Northwest: we know that competition in our own country will, at all events, keep prices not only of farm implements but of everything else at low figures. We have never had, in the history of Canada, such cheap goods as we have to-day. This is due to competition, and that competition comes from our own people. Therefore, the farmers Mr. BROCK.

of the North-west have no just cause of complaint, except in so far as the present government have been dilatory in pressing a policy which they have adopted, but which they opposed to the teeth while they were in opposition. If there is one thing that is really disgusting in politics, it is the contemptible position in which politicians will sometimes place themselves. I can understand a man standing up and saying : I have made a mistake; I was

wrong. But to quietly put on the clothes of his opponent-well, even that I do not mind so much. But to try to make the public believe-you cannot do it however you may try-that they were your own clothes, that is one of the disgusting things of politics. I did not exactly agree with the hon. Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) in his allusion to that friend of the present government, the ' Globe ' newspaper. The ' Globe ' is a great newspaper. The management of the ' Globe ' feels bound to publish in its columns letters that come from any part of the country. A letter appeared in that newspaper not very long ago dealing with the project that the Minister of Public Works seems to have set his heart upon-the French river canal. But that work is only a beginning. If it is to be of any benefit to the farmers of the North-west, that canal must be built through to the city of Montreal. This writer-and he speaks with some authority- calculates that the total cost of that work will be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $300,000,000. The Minister of Public Works calls for the fool who is going to put his money into it. I do not believe he will find him. But you have to find a person who is not very wise to find one who will spend $5,000,000 on a little patch of canal that will begin nowhere and leads to nowhere. It would be better for the country if the government could see its way to securing an increase in the number of tracks in our railway system. This is an all-the-year-round country. We cannot bring our grain that is grown in the Northwest. if we work only in the summer time. We must hold out inducements to the railway companies and great transportation companies to move the grain all the year round-and it will take the whole year to move it. In the interest not only of the farmers of the North-west, but of the great financial institutions that are putting their money into moving the grain crop, it must be kept moving continually, and not only for the few months of canal navigation. I would therefore ask the government, before they commit themselves to this expenditure of $5,000,000-which may be regarded as a small thing but, like other small expenditures may be the entering wedge to another of the unfortunate investments which this country has already made in the shape of canals-to consider this whole question very carefully. Hon. members from the North-

west seem to wish to gather in a great deal of prosperity at once. They want to make the North-west an enormously wealthy country in a few years. But the only solid prosperity that has ever been known in commerce is that kind that is slowly and steadily built up. Let us not be in too great a hurry. Let us take time and consider what the results of our present investments are going to be. During last session, I urged very strongly that the Minister of Railways and Canals and the Minister of Public Works should come down to this House with some comprehensive scheme of transportation. I did not ask the Minister of Public Works to devise a canal costing $5,000,000 to be built at public expense, and to be used, probably, by a private corporation, but a general, comprehensive scheme, which would take in the whole North-west, and I hoped, carry the grain through by our great waterway, the St. Lawrence. But, so far, we have had only shreds and patches, not a comprehensive scheme. I would strongly urge the government and the country not to spend $5,000,000, unless the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Railways and Canals, in fact, the whole government, come to us with a comprehensive and reasonable scheme. The Minister of Public Works has made us one of his usual magnificent protection speeches. Here is one of the things we have seen too often in this House and this country, and which, I say, are the disgusting things' in politics. I do not doubt that the hon. gentleman is thoroughly and sincerely honest in his expression-I do not say that he says one thing and means another. But he is a member of a government many of whose members are absolutely opposed to his idea. The hon. gentleman himself has stated to what extent they differ. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I might say a word to the hon. members from the North-west who have so ably put their cases to this House I would ask them to apply their great business ability and their capacity for handling important questions, to do what the Minister of Public Works urged upon them-take a broad view of this question, try to take in all Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Let us not regard this question only from the point of view of the wheat grown in the Northwest. important as that is, but let us remember that we are endeavouring to make a nation on this northern half of the continent. Let us not accept unquestioningly the views of respectable old gentlemen who have inherited their views from their free trade forefathers. We cannot make a great country in that way. These gentlemen and their ideas pass away, but the North-west remains. If we are to develop that country and make it a means of bringing greatness to Canada, we must take a broader view of these questions, it appears to me, than that which was indicated by the expression we have heard from these hon. gentlemen this evening. Let us not consider only the gentlemen from down by the Atlantic Ocean, and their threats against the present government that in the event of their not accepting the idea of these gentlemen they will withdraw their support. There are greater things in this country than governments. If this country is ever going to be great it must be because you gentlemen from the North-west, representing a great country, which is increasing enormously in population and in wealth, take broad and patriotic views of the questions that come before you. We have discussions in this House brought up by individual members who, though living in this country, and under its protection, we know are not patriotic, and who desire that the great British Empire should be disrupted. But remembering that their influence is infinitesimal, that they are few in numbers, that they are contemptible, I would ask the members of the North-west that they would join the representatives of Ontario and Quebec and the maritime provinces and try to make this country by being united and by thinking of the" welfare of all and not by being small and selfish. If the bulk of the manufacturing happens to be done in Ontario at the present time, let these hon. gentlemen look forward to the time when it will be done in the North-west and British Columbia. Join with us, and you will find that from this side of the House we will loyally and patriotically assist you in any policy that is in the best interest of Canada, rather than of any particular section of it.

Topic:   ST. CATHARINE'S WATER SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   WHEAT BLOCKADE IN MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. FRANK OLIVER (Alberta).

It would be uncourteous on the part of the members from the North-west, opportunity being given them, if they did not respond and acknowledge the very kind advice that has been tendered to them as to the attitude they should assume on public questions. I am glad to hear the hon. member who has just sat down (Mr. Brock) and so many other hon. members, lecture those of us who come from the North-west on the principles of patriotism. Since when did we of the North-west require to be lectured on the principles of patriotism, of Canadian nationalism ? Our presence in the North-west is evidence of our nationalism ? Otherwise we would be along with the million and more oef our countrymen who are residents in the United States to-day. Those of us who are in the North-west are there because we are patriotic Canadians, because we are nationalists in the large and complete sense of the term, rather than for any other reason. We do not have to be taught nationalism at the hands of anyone, no matter how highly respected he may be in this House or elsewhere. Particularly let me say that we do not require to be lectured on the duty of holding a broad national

view of national questions, when we are dealing with a subject that involves a matter of between $25,000,000 and $50,000,000 of the wealth of this country, produced in one year, we do not need to be lectured by men who to-day are badgering the government for an increase in the duties on woollen goods, a matter that interests a section of the people, a section of the country, something that requires attention possibly, but I ask you, Mr. Speaker, does it bear any proportion, any comparison, to the interest involved in the matter that has been engaging the attention of the House to-night V

We have been discussing a question involving the prosperity, the growth, the welfare of the North-west, and thereby involving the growth, the prosperity and the welfare of the Dominion of Canada. For, I ask you, where else have you an increase of wealth ? Where else have you an increase of prosperity, as shown by the census returns, but in that great west ? Would not Canada be retrograding in population but for the great North-west ? Where does that increase come from of which Canada boasts within the last few years, except from the country west of Lake Superior ? I take the liberty of saying that this Canada of ours would be but a poor Canada, would offer but a poor inducement for a man to proclaim himself a Canadian, were it not for the country west of Lake Superior.

Topic:   ST. CATHARINE'S WATER SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   WHEAT BLOCKADE IN MANITOBA.
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CON

William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BROCK.

That is hard on your political friends who refused to build the Canadian Pacific Railway.

Topic:   ST. CATHARINE'S WATER SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   WHEAT BLOCKADE IN MANITOBA.
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March 10, 1902