April 30, 1901

L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

Wait a moment, the Globe of the 1st February, reporting Mr. Harty's speech, said :

Before sitting down, he read a telegram from the Hon. Mr. Blair announcing that the Kingston Locomotive Works had received an order to construct three locomotives for the Intercolonial Railway, an announcement that was greeted with great applause.

Now, we will see what the hon. minister had to say about that. The hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Taylor) asked a question in this House, and this is the question and the answer :

To what parties have letters or telegrams been sent announcing that such contract had been given to the Kingston Locomotive Works?

The reply of the Minister of Railways was :

No such letter or telegram has been sent as is referred to in this sub-question.

That means that the statement made by the Globe that Mr. Harty read a telegram sent from the minister was not correct, because the minister tells us that no such telegram was sent. So, instead of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Britton) charging the Conservatives with endeavouring to make political capital out of these works, the records show that the friends of the hon. gentleman are those who have endeavoured to make political capital In this way.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

I have had but a short time to look over the correspondence. Will the hon. member answer a few questions. First, dealing with what the hon. gentleman said about the public knowledge of the order in council of the 16th October, I notice that there is no public announcement until the very day after Mr. King's option expired. That expired on Monday the 5th November, and the announcement was made the day afterwards. I see no correspondence in which Messrs. Haney, Harty and Bermingham proposed that there should be an advance payment of 80 per cent as the work is progressing. In fact I find the order in council of November 28th in which the contract

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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

That was the date of the report. If the hon. gentleman will turn over the page, he will see that the order was passed on the 12th December.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

There is a memorandum which recommends the giving of an order for fourteen locomotives, which may be modified by increasing the number to twenty, to the Canadian Locomotive and Engine Company, for $19,000 each, delivered on the Intercolonial at Montreal, the said locomotives to be single expansion consolidated freight engines, a contract to be entered into by Mr. Wm. Harty, who has acquired the property of the company. And it gives the type of the engine, but nothing about the progress estimates.

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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

That was later.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Then there was a memorandum of the 28th November, 1900, approved by His Excellency on the 12th December :

On a memorandum dated 28th November, 1900, from the Minister of Railways and Canals, recommending that the order in council dated 16th October, 1900, which authorized the purchase of fourteen locomotives for the Intercolonial Railway from the Canadian Locomotive and Engine Company of Kingston be modified by increasing the number to twenty and fixing the price at

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

$19,000 each, to be paid on progress certificates up to 80 per cent of the value of material supplied and work done on conditions to be prescribed by the minister.

Then the department authorized the contract to be entered into with Mr. Win. Harty, Michael Haney and Cornelius Ber-mingham. There seems to be no correspondence at all with reference to the change, the recommendation by the minister that the contract be given to these parties instead of to Mr. Harty.

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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

I apprehend that would all be arranged orally. The hon. gentleman will see that the report to council of the 28tb of November was made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who was acting for ;me in my absence, and it was likely the subject of oral discussion, because we have no written records in the department relating to the subject. The hon. member has been furnished with all we have. It would be the subject of personal interview, and of an amendment to the order at the time of its passage on the 12th of December.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

It is very inadvisable that contracts of this importance should be conducted by the department orally alone. The proper way is to have the negotiations made in writing. Further, I see there is a letter from Mr. Pottinger to the deputy minister, dated the 6th of February, 1901 :

I have your letter dated January 29th inclosing a copy of the agreement with Messrs. Wm. Harty and others for twenty freight locomotives to be built at Kingston. The specification has a new clause in it, No. 12, by which 20 per cent of the price of the locomotives is to be paid in monthly instalments.

I suppose he means 80 per cent.

We formerly paid on delivery of each machine, retaining a certain portion of the price to cover failures of the engine afterwards for a time. As we are to tpay for the locomotives before delivery, will it not be advisable to require the contractors to effect an insurance on the material at their expense, so as to protect the railway from loss? The 8th clause provides for the replacing of anything damaged or destroyed, but it is perhaps a question whether that is sufficient protection or not.

Then, here is the minister's answer, through L. K. Jones, secretary :

I have to acknowledge the receipt of your communication of the 6th instant, relative to the contract recently entered into with Messrs. Wm. Harty et al., for the supply and delivery of twenty locomotives for the Intercolonial Railway, by which you suggest that, as the railway is to pay for the locomotives before delivery, it would be advisable to require the contractors to effect, at their own expense, an insurance on the material in order to protect the railway from loss. In reply, I am, by direction, to inform you that it is too late now to act on your suggestion, and that the clause No. 12, to which you refer, was inserted in the specification in this regard by the minister himself, with a full knowledge of the facts of the case,

he, no doubt, considering the 8th clause, also referred to in your said letter, quite sufficient.

Any protest from Mr. Pottinger receives the proper snub that it ought from the minister. I see also that the contract is not for twenty locomotives, it is for twenty-two.

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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

We contracted for two afterwards, they are separate contracts.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

I see that the contract has been transferred, or allowed to be transferred, from Harty, Haney and Ber-mingham, to the Canadian Locomotive Works, by order in council. What I particularly object to is that there is no correspondence with reference to the change, and no written proposals from the parties entering into an important contract like this, and no report from the officers of his department as to the value which was placed upon them. There is nothing hut a statement that he has purchased locomotives for a certain price, and after deducting duty, they come to a price within $400 or $500 of the price that is being paid by him elsewhere. I also object to the secrecy in which the whole of this transaction was involved. The whole transaction appears to me to be of a suspicious character.

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LIB

Thomas Barnard Flint

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Flint).

Carried.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

No, there is over a million dollars for cars.

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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

I do not want to force the hon. gentleman to remain any longer to-night. I suppose the summer will be long enough to enable us to get through the Items. I move that the committee rise and report progress. We cannot report any resolutions, for we have not passed any.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Would the hon. gentleman lay on the Table to-night, or early In the morning, the correspondence in reference to the cars. I moved for the papers long ago, and they ought to have been on the Table long ago.

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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

I don't think the hon. gentleman moved for anything.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

I will read the order if the hon. gentleman doubts it.

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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

I have been anxious to furnish all that information. If the hon. gentleman will find the order I will be pleased to stand corrected. But I have not been aware to the present moment that the hon. gentleman had moved for any such papers.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

I will read it.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART asked :

How many locomotives have been purchased for the Department of Railways and Canals ? How many passenger cars? How many freight

ears? The total number of locomotives so purchased? How many have been purchased in Canada and how many in the United States? From what corporation or persons have such locomotives been purchased, and how many from each, and what is the amount of price paid or payable to each corporation or person for such locomotives? Also the total number of passenger cars and freight cars.

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April 30, 1901