April 12, 1901

CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

I believe Mr. O'Donoghue is in the Department of Labour in Ottawa, and Mr. McGlockling has been given a comfortable government situation in Toronto.

-that this Trade and Labour Congress, composed of regularly elected and eredentialed delegates of bona fide labour organizations throughout Canada, having a knowledge that for years past, and at the present time, the labour market of the Dominion has been and is constantly overcrowded in all its branches, mechanical and manual; be it therefore resolved, that the ex-

penditure of any public money, directly or Indirectly, for the purpose of assisting, bonusing, encouraging or decoying immigrants of either or both tile classes mentioned, adult or juvenile, from abroad to Canada is unnecessary and unjustifiable under such circumstances. -

Be it resolved further, that as a consequence of the existence of such a condition of the labour market in the Dominion of Canada, the existing unjust and misleading system of Dominion immigration, as well as like expenditures on the part of all the provinces except British Columbia, should be abolished, and only those possessed of financial wealth should be encouraged to the country.

I think that fairly represents the feelings of the working classes. 1 Indeed, what is the use of bringing out largo numbers of people, without means, to settle on our prairies ? There is no labour for them, their neighbours cannot give them work until they can get a start, and we ought to have, I was going to say, more Christian charity than to put men off in a lonely part of the country like that, and without means. What will happen is what is now happening, that the government will have to see that they do not suffer for the common necessities of life, and they will have to be supported out of the public exchequer. Here is another resolution of a similar character, passed in 1894 by the Trades and Labour Councils of Canada :

Moved by Mr. O'Donoghue, seconded by Mr. Holmes, and resolved :

That in view of the past and present experience of organized labour in Canada, that the labour market is overcrowded; be it therefore resolved, that the expenditure of any public money, directly or indirectly, for the purpose of assisting, bonusing, encouraging or decoying immigrants, adults or juveniles, from abroad to Canada is unnecessary and unjustifiable under such circumstances.

Be it resolved further, that as a consequence of the existence of such a condition of the labour market in the Dominion of Canada, the existing unjust and misleading system of Dominion immigration, as well as like expenditure on the part of all the provinces except British Columbia should be abolished, and only those possessed of financial wealth should be encouraged to the country.

Be it resolved still further, that it be an instruction to the executive committee of this congress to prepare and present to the hon. the Minister of 'the Interior and Immigration for Canada and the several immigration bureaus of the provinces, a duly certified copy of this resolution.

I will read one that was passed In 1896 :

Moved by Mr. O'Donoghue, and seconded by Mr. Little, and resolved

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CON
CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

I guess likely it is, he had not been shelved at that time.

*-that inasmuch as the immigration policy of the Canadian government in the past has not been beneficial either in the matter of desirable settlers or as to the character of the im-Mr. WILSON.

migrants encouraged and assisted to this country, it be an instruction to the executive committee to immediately press upon the government of Canada that the immigration system be remodelled so that only the proper class of people should be sought as immigrants from abroad for Canada, and that to the better attainment of securing the settlement of our vacant lands a very liberal system of colonization should be inaugurated, not only by the Dominion government, but by all Canadian provincial governments as well.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I think I have laid pretty fully before you the opinion of the labouring classes of this country with reference to the course pursued by the government in bringing undesirable immigrants to this country. I think no one will object to any man coming here who is able and willing to take care of himself and of his family. We will welcome such men with both hands. But, I would be just as strongly opposed to bringing people here who would not be able to take care of themselves, and who would become a burden on the country.

Now, I want to call attention to the expenses in connection with the immigration system, to the money spent both in the United States and in Canada. It is true that according to the reports we are getting a good many more people from the United States than we have heretofore. I am going to give the cost of the various agencies in the United States, a bulk sum, in order that our people may know how much of their money is being spent in the United States, and also in the old country.

Omaha, Neb., W. W. Bennett, agent... .$2,339 75

Chicago, 111., C. J. Brouther, agent... 2,665 00

Bad Axe, Mich., D. L. Cavan 3,198 33

Kansas City, J. S. Crawford 2,590 84

Steven's Point, Wis., T. O. Currie 2,818 00

St. Paul, Minn., B. Davies 3,966 06

Reed City, Mich., James Grieve 2,699 94

St. Paul, Minn., E. T. Holmes 2,521 58

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CON
CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

I never had the pleasure of meeting the gentleman. I presume he is a gentleman whom the government employed, thinking that he was possessed of suitable qualities for an immigration agent, or for political services that he had rendered.

Detroit, M. V. Mclnnes $4,981 29

Watertown, South Dakota, W. H. Rogers 2,301 08

New England States, C. O. Swinson_____ 2,338 78

Press agent, W. J. White 5,443 69

Total $37,866 04

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CON
CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

Well, he is a mere wanderer, he is a press agent,, and appears to have travelled all over the country. Now I will give yon a little detailed account of what he expended his money for. In the first place he is getting a salary of $2,000. In the second place his accident insurance costs $20 ; board and lodging. $1,117.65-a very moderate sum ; baggage transfer,. $26.50 ; bus fare, $45.30. I wish we had the

former member for North Wellington here to criticise this properly. Banners for side of cars, $16 ; cabs, $56 ; fares, $669.70 ; flags, $10.50 ; laundry, $18.02. That is bis washing. Livery, $70 ; loss on dining car, $107.25. I suppose he had to have a dining car to himself and that it did not pay very well. Pullmans, $590.05. 1 guess he slept in a

Pullman car all the time pretty nearly. Special supper to Press Association, half price, $150 ; tips, $51.95.

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CON
CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

The total is $5,443.69. I believe it is the custom of the department now to insist upon immigration agents sending in a diary every day showing where they are and what work they are doing. I took the pains to copy out of a return brought down to the House a short time ago a few of these particulars. Mr. T. O. Currie, in 1S98, was employed 151 days and was unemployed 162 days ; or, at least, there is no report for those days. He drew his salary of $1,200 just the same. In 1899 he was employed 156 days and unemployed, so far as the report goes, 157 days. He drew his $1,200 just the same. In 1900 he was employed 167 days and unemployed 146 days. He' drew his $1,200 for the year just the same. Now, of course the hon. Minister of the Interior may be able to explain this. He may say that his diary did not give a detailed statement of what he was doing. If it did not, and the hon. minister has the information it is his duty to give it to the House. This is the information that I have gathered from the report brought down by the Department of the Interior. Then, there is Mr. W. H. Rogers. The House will remember and the members of the Agricultural Committee will remember that we had great difliculty with this gentleman last year. He seemed to ignore the instructions he got from the department entirely, because, on four different occasions at least when they asked him to give a daily report of what he was doing he never did it apparently. In 1898-I take it that he was only appointed in 1898-he drew $525, and in 1899 he drew $900. There is no account in either year as to what he did, but, in 1900 he reports as having been employed 126 days and unemployed 166 days, but ue drew $900 all the same. Here is Mr. M. V. Mc-Innes. He is located at Detroit. He is reported in 1898 as having been employed 177 days and unemployed, or no report as to what he was doing, 136 days. He drew his $1,500 just the same. In the next year he only lost 65 days, Sundays and all, but there was no reduction made in his salary in either of these two years. Now, there are others here that I could talk about in the same way, but I do not suppose it is necessary, because, if the hon. minister will clear up these gentlemen, it may go a good way in clearing up the whole lot.

Now, then, I shall come to the results of our immigration policy, taking Ireland first. .We have Mr. C. R. Devlin and Mr. John Webster at the Dublin agency. They got $6,6S9.35 in 1900, and we have the Londonderry agency, in charge of Mr. E. O. Kelley, which cost $3,253.27, or a total of $9,942.62.

I have taken in this case the fiscal year. There were 701 immigrants in the fiscal year of 1900. Perhaps I should have taken, to make a fairer comparison, the calendar year, but, In the fiscal year 1900, as I have said, we got from Ireland 701 persons and they cost us $14.18 per head. The Glasgow agency cost us $5,123.73, and the Dumfries agency, $1,872.08, or a total cost for Scotland of $6,995.81. The number of immigrants we received was 1,411, at a cost per head of $5. The Liverpool agency cost us $10,730,54, the London High Commissioner's office $2,132.72, and the Welsh agency, $5,164.65, making a total cost for England and Wales of $1S,-027.91. The number of immigrants we received from these parts of the United Kingdom was 8,814, at a cost per head of $2.20 as against $14.18 per head of the immigrants received from Ireland. Now, I just want to make, in conclusion, a comparison between the United States and ourselves. You will understand, Mr. Speaker, chat in the United States, instead of sending parties abroad to induce people to go to that country they have a large staff to prevent undesirable immigrants landing there. In 1899 they prevented over 1,800 people from landing in their country who were considered undesirable immigrants, and they have adopted more stringent1 measures than those before in force because they are appointing men to come to Canada to prevent people going into the United States from Canada as immigrants. The number of immigrants that came to Canada in 1899 was 44,543, and in 1900, 44,697, an increase in 1900 over 1899 of 154 persons. That was the/ total increase, and had it not been for the increased immigration from the United States there would have been a very large decrease on the whole. The expenditure on immigration in 1899 was $255,878.88, and in 1900 it was $434,562.61, an increased expenditure in 1900 over 1899 of $178,683.88. That is paying pretty dearly for the extra 154 people we got. We are paying over $1,000 a head for them and the increased cost in 1900 over 1899 was nearly $3 per head. In 1899 the cost was $5.74 per head, and in 1900 $9.72 per head. Now compare that with the United States. The commissioner general reports that in 1898 the number of immigrants to the United States was 229,298, and in 1899 the number was 311,715. The total expenditure by the United States on immigration in 1898 was $275,809.32, and the total expenditure by the United States on immigration in 1899 was $2SS,002.26. The cost per head of immigrants to the United States in 1898 was about $1220, and the cost per head of immigrants to the United States in 1899 was

i COMMONS

about 92 cents. Now let us take the cost in Canada. The cost of immigrants per head in Canada in 1899 was $5.74, and in 1900 it was $9.72. We therefore find that Canada's immigrants in 1899 cost her six times as much as it cost the United States for their immigrants, and Canada's immigrants in 1900 cost over ten times as much as it cost the United States for their immigrants. Remember, Sir, that this expense has to be borne in Canada by a population of less than 6,000,000, as compared with a population in the United States of over 70,000,000. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think it would be well for this government to consider the situation, and either to pursue the course which the United States is pursuing, namely, call their agents in from the old countries; or else, let this government do as the province of New Brunswick is doing, bring their agents back to Canada, give them instructions that they may know what they are expected to do, and let them go to the field of their labours properly equipped for their duties. If these men who now are agents are willing to do that, and if it is necessary we should have immigrant agents abroad, then they should pursue their work properly; but, if our present agents are not willing to do their work, let the government appoint others who will do it in their stead.

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LIB

William Forsythe McCreary

Liberal

Mr. WM. F. McCREARY (Selkirk).

I have understood, Mr. Speaker, for the last ten days that the hon. member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson) was likely to speak on the question of immigration, and us I have a quantity of data from which I could have spoken in probably more detail, I regret that I have not been able to collect these papers for the present occasion. I think, however, Sir, that I will be able to show the House that some of the remarks of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson) are absolutely without foundation. In the first place, I do not know that there is any more important subject that could be brought to the attention of this parliament than the question of immigration. It has been recognized as such by both political parties for many years. When during this session two or three weeks of valuable time were expended in discussing the tariff, I thought that while that might be an important matter, yet there were other matters of equal importance to the west especially, to which very little time or attention is given. When the Hon. Sir Charles Tupper and other hon. gentlemen were, in 1881, urging the Canadian Pacific Railway syndicate bargain to the favourable consideration of parliament, one of their strongest arguments was that the Canadian Pacific Railway and the government would fill up with settlers our great territories in the west. And while we are proud of possessing that line of steel that connects one province of this Dominion with the other; while we are proud of pointing to the Canadian Pacific Railway as a great

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CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON.

military road, we must bear in mind that to the people of the North-west, it has not been altogether an unmixed blessing. That is due to the very fact that the building of that road so rapidly across the prairie district, has caused many hardships under which the people of the North-west are to-day labouring. The same remark would apply to the city of Winnipeg. We were told that the city of Winnipeg was going to have a great population in a comparatively short time, and during the boom of 1882 they so enlarged the city limits of Winnipeg, that they are at present of the same extent as the limits of the city of Glasgow, or Manchester, England, each of which has a population of about 800,000. The consequence is, that in Winnipeg, as some of you know, people flock to the outskirts, buy small lots, put up houses, and when a few get together they demand a sewer, a sidewalk, and a graded street, so that it is difficult for the corporation of Winnipeg to provide for the government of the city because of the sparse population extended over the extensive limits of the municipality. Well, Sir, the same thing applies in the North-west Territories. When the road was extended, settlers came to pass by good lands quite close to the city of Winnipeg, with the expectation that they would get better land in Alberta or Saskatchewan, and so they proceeded on a thousand miles with the hope of settling prosperously at the foot-hills of the Rockies. That has had a bad effect upon immigration. It has had the effect of driving people away to seek land in countries more thickly settled as there is nothing so prejudicial to settlement as the absolute loneliness of life on the prairie, especially for women and children, when they are located miles from any organized community. Schools cannot be erected ; there is no society, and a great many of the people who have left our country did so on account of these conditions. Sir Charles Tupper, when he urged the adoption of the Canadian Pacific Railway syndicate bargain, was of the opinion, and no doubt justifiably so, that we would have two or three million people in that country within ten years. We all know that unfortunately that result has not been obtained, and that unfortunate result is due largely to the policy adopted by the then government. As a matter of fact, the census of 1S91 showed very little more than the natural increase notwithstanding that we had expended over $1,000,000 on immigration. If there ever was a time when we should have got emigrants into that country it was during these years. The Canadian Pacific Railway main line was built between 1SS2 and 1880; the Deloraine and Glenboro branches running through southern Manitoba, and the line to Yorkton were built during these ten years, and in that same ten years the United States got

the largest number of immigrants that ever came into their country. In the year 1883,

788,000 immigrants settled in the United States, and in each of these ten years there was never less than half a million immigrants to that country. Therefore, if ever there was a time in the history of the Northwest when that country should have beeu settled it was the time when these roads were being constructed, when that money was being expended, and when that country was being so well advertised. That is the time we should have got our immigrants and kept them. I submit that owing to the peculiar policy adopted by the late government, the few emigrants that were brought into that country were allowed to go away. Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe that if there is any one question from which party politics should be entirely swept away it is the question of immigration.

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CON
LIB

William Forsythe McCreary

Liberal

Mr. McCREARY.

I think it has been done to a great extent, and I thinfe before I am finished, I will be able to show that so far as the western portion of Canada is concerned it has been done.

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CON

Nathaniel Clarke Wallace

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WALLACE.

I was speaking of the hon. gentleman's own speech.

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LIB

William Forsythe McCreary

Liberal

Mr. McCREARY.

I was not referring to this matter because the government was Conservative or Liberal; I merely mentioned a particular period, and you can call it what government you like which was in power then. As to excluding politics from this question of immigration, I shall quote the Hon. T. Mayne Daly, who, in the last report he made to this House after a trip to the old country, said :

The question of immigration should be considered entirely aside from politics. Both political parties should approach this subject from the standpoint of nationalism only and do all they can to assist in strengthening the government of the day in carrying out, this, in my humble opinion, the greatest work that presents itself to the government of the country.

Again, he says :

It is admitted on every hand by both political parties that the future welfare and prosperity of Canada is in a very large measure bound up by the peopling and developing of our great west from Port Arthur in Ontario to Vancouver Island on the Pacific. We have everything to offer the coming settler, and we can feel justified in encouraging the right class of people to come to make their homes amongst us. It has been calculated by American statesmen that each settler who takes up land in the United States is worth $1,000 to the State. I agree with this estimate.

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CON
LIB

William Forsythe McCreary

Liberal

Mr. McCREARY.

I will come to that in a moment. I shall give you the authority of gentlemen who are identified with the

Conservative party for nearly everything which I shall say to-day. The hon. gentlemen opposite should be satisfied with that authority. I say the Hon. T. Mayne Daly was correct in the statement he made at that time. In the United States, notwithstanding the political feuds that exist between the two parties, when the Democrats were in power the Republicans abstained from criticising their immigration policy, and the Democrats act in the same way when the Republicans are in power. The only criticism was by the labouring men when large numbers of people were imported from foreign countries to flock into the cities and cause strikes. It is not necessary for me to refer to the various reports made by the High Commissioners in England, Sir Charles Tupper and Lord Strathcona, in which they dealt with the Immigration question entirely in a non-partisan spirit. And I want to say here on behalf of Sir Charles Tupper, that I have noticed that since he re-entered politics, he never criticised the policy of this government in regard to bringing in Galicians and Doukhobors. Although his satellites and party papers attacked those people as the scum of Europe, Sir Charles Tupper never made a statement derogatory of them, because he had been in England and on the continent of Europe, and bad studied the situation. In his various reports he commended the very policy which this government are pursuing. I am glad to be able to compliment him in this respect.

The bon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson), in the first place, seemed to commend some features of the policy of the present government, especially the literature they have issued. Then he took up the question of the desirability of procuring immigrants from the Britsh Isles. There are very few members of this House but will agree that if we were able to get suitable immigrants from the British Isles, they would be much better than those who come from continental Europe. However, 1 submit, after some experience, that the most desirable immigrant is not from Great Britain. The most desirable immigrant is the man from Ontario, and the older provinces of Canada, who has had some experience in the Western States, such as Kansas, Missouri, Wisconsin or Dakota, because he adds to his knowledge as a farmer here a valuable experience derived from living in a prairie country. With regard to getting immigration from Great Britain, the High Commissioners in their reports of the last ten years, have pointed out the difficulty ; and the Hon. T. Mayne Daly, who went abroad to look into that question, explained very fully in his report why it was difficult to get immigrants from Great Britain. He showed that one of the causes why such a large number of people went from Ireland to the United States was that their passages were prepaid, and I will quote from his report what he says with

regard to Canada doing the same thing. He said :

A system has been in vogue in the western states for some years back known as * prepaid passages.' It means that through the assistance of local banks, railway corporations, and other agencies, settlers in the western states have been enabled to send money or tickets to their friends in the old land whom they were desirous of bringing to, America. It is surprising the thousands of people that have been brought out to the western states by this means.

As a matter of fact, I believe about 95 per cent of the immigration from Ireland to the United States went there through prepaid passages. Mr. Daly goes on :

What we want, and the only class of people our agents are authorized to encourage, are agriculturists, farmers and farm servants of both sexes, or others having experience in, or who are desirous of engaging in agricultural pursuits. We are getting our share of this class of immigrants at present; if we desire them in large numbers, we will have to offer the inducements I have enumerated.

I have spoken entirely of this system being carried out in Great Britain and Ireland. There is no reason why it should not, under the same supervision, be extended to continental Europe -in such countries as the government officials would be permitted to carry on their propaganda.

So we have the statement of Mr. Daly that he would uot only allow immigrants to come from continental Europe, hut he would actually have their passages prepaid and every other possible inducement offered.

The hon. gentleman dealt at considerable length with the question of foreign immigrants, especially the Galicians and the Doukhobors. I might point out, in the first place, that this government is not to be given the credit of having brought in all the Galicians. The Galician immigration to Canada was started under a former government. I think it was about the year 1S93 that Prof. Oleskof was brought from Galicia and travelled through the North-west Territories and made a report in behalf of the Galicians. The first large band of Galicians arrived in this country on the 17th of June, 1896, just about the time of the general election of that year. Mr. Oarstens, the Galician interpreter at Winnipeg, speaks in the highest terms of thes$ people in his report, as published in the Report of the Department of the Interior for 1896. Sir Charles Tupper, in his report as High Commissioner, also says that he is satisfied with the Galician as an immigrant ; and I submit, after an experience of four years in dealing'with that class of settlers, that they are going to make good settlers for the North-west Territories. The Galicians differ from the Doukhobors in some respects. They do not hold their property communally, hut individually. They may not he in one way as moral a people as the Doukhobors, and of course they have not the same religion. The Mennonite prefers to go on open prairie Mr. McCreary.

where there is no bush or scrub, and where he can engage in the raising of wheat, and agricultural machinery can be used. The Galician differs from the Mennonite in this respect. He prefers to go on land where there is scrub or timber, with which to build his small house and provide himself with fuel : and the quality of the land does not make so much difference to him. For instance, the first party of Galicians sent out settled east of Emerson, in the district known as Greenridge or Dominion City, within forty miles of Winnipeg. The greater part of that district was settled in 1S72 by some of the soldiers who went out with Lord Wolseley ; but there were six or seven townships of very inferior land left, and the government showed the Galicians that land and they took it up. It has a great many gravel ridges and small pocket meadows or sloughs, and machinery cannot be profitably worked on it ; but the Galicians like to have fields of from five to twenty acres here and there, on which they can raise pigs, poultry, coarse grains, vegetables and cattle. They do not care for raising grain on an extensive scale. In fact, they are the very class of farmers the North-west stood in need of. The great drawback in the North-west was that every man wanted to grow grain on a large scale. There were not enough men raising cattle and other stock, or what is known as mixed farming. Fortunately, in the last few years there has been an improvement in that respect. The Galician prefers the very kind of mixed farming which is carried on here in the Ottawa Yalley, and I have no doubt that many of those people will be able to supply the country with large quantities of the things which we have hitherto had to import.

As regards the cleanliness of the Doukhobors and Galicians, I would point out that when they landed on the docks at Halifax or Quebec, they had just left a vessel on which they had been two or three weeks crossing the sea. And if the hon. members could see the condition in which the holds of such vessels are kept-vessels that have brought cattle across and return with immigrants-they would realize how difficult it was for these people to have any regard for cleanliness. And there was not much use in their going to any pains to wash and take care of themselves on their landing, because they had still a long journey over land to make. But, the moment a train load of these immigrants arrives at Winnipeg, and before they are there an hour, the water is boiling, and those people are washing night and day until they are just as clean as any other settlers. When I remonstrated with them about their condition, they said to me, with tears in their eyes, how could we help it, our linen was clean when we left, but the vessel was in such a condition that we could not keep ourselves clean, packed as we were in a

small hold. I might say that a similar condition prevailed In the old days, when our forefathers came over, and it is not reasonable to reproach these people with a lack of cleanliness which, under the circumstances. was unavoidable. I have visited their houses, and can give personal evidence of their proper habits. If any hon. gentleman is coming west this coming summer, let him drive some sixty miles from Edmonton and visit the houses of these Galicians, who have been in the country three years, and he will see that the common opinion circulated regarding them is a very erroneous one. Some of these settlers, who had not $100 when they arrived here, have built substantial log houses and have well cultivated farms, with five or six cows, a pair of oxen, and lovely gardens, blooming with not only plants and flowers common to the country, but also brought from Austria with them. He will also notice that the manure is removed from their stables every day. and will find more cleanliness on their premises than he will around many Ontario farms. Last year I had a letter from a gentleman named Ross, who had farmed many . years in Ontario, and afterwards conducted a large farm and private bank in Minnesota who had paid a visit to the Galicians west of Edmonton. I regret that I have not that letter with me. but in it he said that within five years these people would not only" be among the most prosperous farmers of the west, but be lending money, as the Mennonites in southern Manitoba are now doing. This testimony, coming from a man of his experience, is worth any amount of newspaper gossip, founded on prejudice or idle rumours.

A great deal has been said by the hon. gentleman who has just sat down, and by other speakers on other occasions, regarding these Doukliobors. These people have been misrepresented, probably, even more than the Galicians. The first party of Doukliobors with which I came in contact numbered 2,100. They arrived in January, 1899 and had been painted to me in such colours that I was afraid we were going, particularly at that season, to have terrible difficulty with them. I put 600 in the immigration hall at Winnipeg, 300 in a building 300 or 400 yards off. and a little over 1.000 in the immigration hall at East Selkirk. I engaged a number of Galicians, who spoke English, to act as interpreters. About one half the words of the Galician language are the same as the Doukhobor tongue, so that these Galicians were rather imperfect interpreters. but, I employed them to look after these Doukliobors. These people, however, soon came to me. and said they did not want interpreters, and if told what to do. could look after themselves. I. therefore, allowed the Doukliobors to look after the buildings, see that the fires were kept up-it was intensely cold-and they kept the buildings and did their business in such

a way that few business men could have kept them better. I discharged the interpreters except the official one, and allowed those people to manage for themselves, and I concluded from the way they did manage things, that they would make very good settlers on the prairie.

It is charged that they have interfered with the labour market. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is just the reverse of what they will do. If they believe in anything, it is the great brotherhood of man. They believe in every man getting decent wages for a day's work. Let me give an instance of this. On the Canadian Northern road, in 1899, there were about forty Canadians working on a piece of grading from Swan river east, some twenty-six miles. It was very swampy and these people were up to their knees in mud and water. A party of Doukliobors was sent up. and after a while their leader wrote me that his people could not make any money at the wages, and were going to quit. I advised him to go to the proprietors and explain the matter. They followed my advice. They went up and asked 20 cents a yard instead of the 134 cents or 14 cents which they were getting. They did not get the 20 cents, but they got a raise to 17 cents. Then they went to the forty Canadians and told them that they had got a raise of 3 cents a yard, so that, instead of decreasing the wages they actually gave the forty Canadians the benefit of their efforts to raise the pay. The same thing has invariably prevailed elsewhere. I defy the hon. gentleman to show me one case in which the Doukhobors have cut down wages, except during the first two or three months when they were in Winnipeg, and sawed wood at a lower price than they should. But, that was done in ignorance. They did not know the value of money, and could not tell 25 cents from a dollar. Why, the president of the Manitoba and North-western road, Mr. W. R. Baker, told me, that the first time these Doukhobors worked on that road, when they got their first $15 in new one dollar bills, so ignorant were they that they came with the money and wanted to know how much they should give back to the landlord-what percentage was his and what theirs. They could not believe that all that money belonged to themselves. They are honest labourers, and let me tell you what was done in some cases. They were imposed upon by railway foremen. Take the division west of Moosejaw, known as the western division, of which Mr. Milestone was superintendent. He sent a gang of Doukhobors to work on that road, but they did not give satisfaction, and I could not understand why. I found out, however, the reason. You know. Sir, that these people will not eat meat if they can avoid it, and the cook in the camp used to put meat in their soup, which was made of vegetables, and after they had eaten their soup, he would take out the piece of

meat, show it to them and mock them. They did not know how to put a remonstrance, and quietly left the place. Mr. Milestone said they were no good, but I told him that if they got fair treatment they would do very well. I got evidence of the fact, and laid it before Mr. White, of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Then, some of these men went back, and Mr. Milestone has since written a letter in which he states that he has handled men for thirty years in railway construction, and a better class of men he never handled than those 300 Doukhobors. But, he saw that their consciences were not interfered with, and that they were properly treated. The same experience is told by Mr. Sullivan, one of the foremen on the South-eastern road. When some 300 or 400 Doukhobors went down to work on that road, he had difficulty with them at first, but as soon as they understood that they would get fair treatment, and be properly housed and fed, they gave every satisfaction, and Mr. Sullivan says he never had a better gang of men.

The highest record for grading work done by any man in the North-west Territories is held by a Doukhobor working on that road. He made $119 in twenty-four days at dump work. Now. with regard to the Doukhobors, as I have said I spent the winter of 1899 with them. There were six hundred of them around me in the hall where my office was. I was passing out and in among them all the time. I had the best citizens of Winnipeg come to see them. On Sundays, these immigrants generally occupied the evening in singing their psalms, and I had the choirs of the various churches come in. There were people about them there all the time ; and surely, if there had been anything immoral or wrong, we should have had an opportunity to know of it. 1 have watched these people and studied them for the last three or four years, and I defy any one to show a single case of anything wrong or unchaste in their conduct. I wish, here in my place in parliament, to give a denial based upon my knowledge of these people, to the statements that have been made here, and not only that, but to statements made in another place within the last two weeks. I think it is a disgrace-

I cannot use any other term-that public men and public journals should cast such aspersions upon people who have suffered so much for conscience sake as these Doukhobors have. Now, where do we find the greatest opposition to these Doukhobors ? Certainly not where they are best known. Swan River around, Yorkton and Ros-thern, the three colonies, are situated out from these towns-and what do the people of those towns say ? When it was said that 150 of the Doukhobors were going to California a con pie of years ago, the Yorkton Board of Trade, a body composed of men of all shades of politics, met and passed i Mr. McCreary.

a resolution asking the government to do what it could to keep them here. Take the statement of such a man as Mr. Thomas Meredith, one of the strongest merchants there. He said to me : McCreary, when you trust one of these men to pay you on a certain day for a bag of flour or other goods that he has bought, you may make up your mind that on the day, and at the very hour agreed, he will be there with the money or with a satisfactory explanation-and we cannot say that about all the other settlers. It is true they do not buy as largely as some of the others. But they do buy. And what is the result ? The hon. member for West York (Mr. Wallace), who is largely interested around Yorkton will bear me out in saying that, whereas in 1896 Yorkton was so dilapidated that you could buy a lot on the best street for $50, that town has taken life, and to-day you have to pay $1,500 for the same lot. This is evidence of what effect the Doukhobor, Galician and other immigration has had upon the country. They have built a school-house there of solid brick, costing $10,000, and a church costing $15,000. And that Protestant church is patronized by these very Doukhobors and Galicians. I think I have said enough to show that these people will become good settlers. The only thing, apparently, that can be said against them is that in some of their peculiar laws, they do not agree with the laws of Canada. Now, from some of the remarks that fell from the lips of the bon. member for Kingston (Mr. Britton) the other day, when he was urging the establishment of a divorce court for Canada, I do not know that we have so much to boast about in our marriage laws.

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Some hon. MEMBERS

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LIB

William Forsythe McCreary

Liberal

Mr. McCREARY.

I am not giving my own opinion, but am referring to wlmt the hon. member said. He quoted cases in Toronto and other cities throughout Canada showing that there was a very serious condition of affairs. Now, as a matter of fact, while the Doukhobors have a peculiar system of marriage, there can be found only one case of divorce among them during fifty years. The authority of that is Count Tolstoi, the authority for that is Prince Hilkoff ; the authority for that is Alexander Konshin, of Moscow, a gentleman who belongs to the Greek Church, and has no connection with the Doukhobors, who is a merchant prince of Russia, and a man of the highest standing in Russia and in Europe, a man whose word I would take at any time. The authority for that is John Bellows, of Purleigh, Essex, the leading Quaker of England. a gentleman whom I have heard went to the peace conference at the Hague, as personal representative of Her late Majesty, a man of the very highest standing in Great Britain. Surely the word of such a man should be worth more than the utterances

of some lion, gentlemen opposite and some newspapers in Canada. With regard to marriage, these Doukhobors are something like the Mennonites. They do not believe in taking out a license for marriage. They will, in time, register their marriages in their own way just as the Mennonites have done. In fact, they are something like Roman Catholics in their views in one respect, if I am to judge by the decision of Judge Archibald in the Delpit case- they look upon marriage as a sacrament, and not as a civil contract to be dealt with by the courts or civil authorities. That marriages are registered in Heaven they take literally. Shortly after they came, I had Premier Haultain, of the North-west Territories, and Hon. Mr. Bulyea, come to Winnipeg and meet the representatives of the Doukhobors. They discussed this question for four hours, and Mr. Haultain told me afterwards that there would be but little difficulty in bringing these people to our way of thinking. Why, we had difficulty with regard to others of their customs and methods-not relating to such serious matters, of course, but still involving some difficulty. For instance, there was. the way they treated their horses. The horses in Russia are a light class, and the people are in the habit of driving them rapidly and feeding them at intervals of two hours day and night. The horses they bought here were heavy draught horses, and they could not treat them in the same way. They could only be driven thirty miles a day. The Doukhobors wanted to race them. The consequence was they killed off 40 or 50 per cent of their horses by improper feeding and driving. Then, there was trouble about their wagons. They wanted the Russian wagon to be brought out, and that wagon is about three times as heavy as ours, and not at all suitable to the prairie. I told them that they had better have Canadian wagons. But there was a party of men, eight or ten of them, and some women as well, who came out here with the Doukhobors as nurses and doctors, who were more impractical than the Doukhobors themselves. They were theorists, fadists, anarchists you might call them. It was a case of the blind leading the blind. Instead of trying to persuade the Doukhobors that they were wrong, and leading them to take up Canadian ways, they told them that they were right, and told us that we must come to the Doukhobor's ways. But I said : No, there is no use in that ; we know best what is suitable for this country. But the only way you could teach some of them was by experience. They went to a factory and ordered the material-oak-to be sawn for eighty wagons. The order was given to a man from Almonte, who keeps a mill there, in Winnipeg. They ordered the hubs, spokes, fellows, and so on, three times the size that are used in our wagons. Young Tolstoi encouraged them to get wagons

after their own pattern. But I got eight or ten of the more intelligent to buy the Chatham wagon. And when the Doukhobors, after they had got two or three of their own wagons, saw how the other teamsters could do far more work with the Canadian wagon, they threw their own wagons aside and bought ours. Prince Hilkoff had to go down and pay out of his own money $1,650 for the oak that had been sawn for these heavy wagons, and that had to be thrown away as useless. This is a simple thing, but it shows how difficult it is to overcome their prejudices. Why, they wanted to use the shorthandled axe-to chop logs with one hand. We had less difficulty in convincing them that that was wrong. No doubt in a very short time there is not a law in force in Canada but these people will cheerfully comply with. I mentioned that the greatest difficulty we had was with the people who came out with them. But thank God, I got rid of them all-all but one. That one was Mr. Bodjiansky, a wellmeaning man. but one of most peculiar ideas. About fifteen months ago, I found that correspondence was going on between him and the Southern Pacific Railway, who were anxious to get five hundred or a thousand men to engage in railway construction work in California, about eighty miles south of Santa Barbara. I learned of this correspondence, and also got a copy of the contract signed by the milling and railway company, and, with this contract, tried to stop these men at the boundary line. But, notwithstanding the boasted laws of the United States, they were allowed to pass, though they were going to the United States under contract, and though there was not $25 among one hundred and fifty of them.

Notwithstanding that I produced the contract in Russian, notwithstanding that I produced the English copy of that to the authorities at the boundary line, notwithstanding that the custom-house officer told me clearly that a case had 'been made of a breach of the Allen Labour 'law and also of the immigration law,-notwithstanding all that, so great was the influence of the Southern Pacific road at Washington that his decision was overruled, and these people were allowed to pass through. This Bodjiansky was the prime mover in all this affair. He sent his son with this crowd, he was in the first crowd that went. I told the people they would regret it. I said : If you go down there you will get a little bigger wage, more steady employment, but the land is so high that you will never be able to become the owners of your own homes. The climate will not suit you, as it is too similar to the climate that you left in Cyprus and in the Caucasus in Russia. The result was that a short time before I came here a large number of these people came back and almost kissed my feet on the platform at the station at Winnipeg. They told

me that had they followed my advice they would not have been coming back in the famished and sickly -condition in which they arrived at Winnipeg. This was all the work of this man Bodjiansky. He knew that toe was foiled, he knew that I had spoiled his game. I do not wish to say that the man was trying to get a large percentage on the people he sent away, but I have my own suspicions. However, he was foiled in his efforts, the people have all returned, and as one last gasp before be left he published -a. manifesto. But the Doukliobors did not believe him, and twenty-two names are all he could get on the manifesto. I may say that I wrote up-1 had not time to write the Doukhobors themselves-but I wrote to a young Doukhobor of the name of Michael Cacazoff, who toad been -living in Brandon. I will give you the history of this young man. He is about 23 or 24 years of age. He was anxious to get an education, and I said I would try and get him into a AVinnipeg school, but it was difficult to get employment for him. He went to Brandon and saw Mr. Fox, professor of foreign languages in the Brandon Baptist *college, who took this young man up. That was about October last. He now writes me a letter in bis own hand, in as good English, with as good penmanship as myself, or most of the members of this House, could frame a letter in.-learned in eight months, showing how that young man got along. I wrote to him telling him the injury that was being done by this manifesto, and asking whether Bodjiansky voiced the feelings of the people. Here is what Mr. Fox wrote to me on the young man's behalf :

As English instructor to Michael Cazaeoff, the Doukhobor whom you know, and knowing -that you are both personally and officially interested in the welfare of the Doukhobors, I have taken -the liberty to write to you briefly of my experience with that people during the past winter.

When I came to Brandon last October to take charge of the language department in the college here, it was suggested to me that I give Michael English lessons. Interested as I am *in foreign languages generally, and desiring to learn the Russian particularly, I took him in hand as soon as he was free to come. Ever since he has had regular appointments with me. He has been exceedingly faithful, never having missed an appointment, always coming on time and without fail, a-t the close of each lesson showing me his deep appreciation of what is being done for him. He tells me from time to time that the fact that he receives any recognition from an official such as yourself, is great encouragement to him. I assure you that your name stands high in honour among the Doukhobors. They are a grateful people.

Through Michael I have come in contact with them quite often, frequently visiting their homes. I have found them all as you described them in your last letter to Michael-clean, peace-loving and thrifty. They all unite in saying that not only do they feel satisfied with the Canadian laws generally, but also that their dreams could not picture to them anything that they would like better.

Mr. McCreary.

I have been questioning Michael regarding the Bodjiansky letters. He says they were written at the instigation of two or three disgruntled Doukhobors who are of the kind that would never be any good anywhere on this globe. Michael got this information from his father who lives in one of the villages in the same locality where Bodjiansky resides.

X toa/ve no doubt but some of the toon, gentlemen from Ontario may know Mr. Fox, the writer of this -letter. He says further :

A number of people here call the Doukhobors lazy, using as their proof, so-called, the fact that very few of them are learning English. I confess I thought at first that it was strong evidence in that direction; but now I see that their backwardness in this respect is owing to their timidity of people.

That is just the thing, the very difficulty of the whole question. They have been so down trodden by the Russian soldiery and the Cossack- authorities, their women have been so flogged and so persecuted, they have been so beaten on account of their religious beliefs and for other reasons, that to-day they are very suspicious, and It takes them a long time before they will believe that what a man says to them is true. They have been deceived so often that they will not believe a man the first time. That is one of the difficulties that has stood in the way. A school was set up at Winnipeg by a lady, or under charge of a' committee of ladles. When they first went into that school there was a large number of pictures hung around the hall. They did uot know but that these pictures represented the doctrines and rites of the Greek Church, and they began to leave. The lady did not know why the children quietly slipped away from the building and would not attend ; they would not even tell my interpreters and officers for -some time why they would not go to that school: Finally they said : These are

Creek Catholic schools, and we do noit want to go where the Greek religion is taught. We believe in our own religion. We want to come here to learn reading and writing, history and geography, -and we do not want to see these pictures hung around the walls. The consequence was that the pictures were taken down and the children went back to school. So you see, Mr. Speaker, some of the difficulties we have to encounter in dealing with these people.

As I have said, this man Bodjiansky tried, and is trying to the 'last to make trouble. There is no doubt lie feels aggrieved because be was not able to carry out bis measure for removing these people to the United States. He tried to stir up strife among them ; and I may say that since he wrote that manifesto he hawked it around the city of Winnipeg to try to get It published in the daily papers. For a long time I have known that lie was trying to get this up. Seeing he has been foiled in his efforts toe lias gone back to Siberia in Rus-

sia, and I am told by tbe Douknobors iu the North-west that they are glad to get rid of him. I may tell the hon. member that if he desires it I can bring a statement from the North-west signed by every Doukhobor that the sentiments expressed by Boujiansky are not the sentiments of the Doukhobor people. I have hopes that in a short time, even this year, the Territorial government and the Dominion government may make certain slight amendments to the marriage laws by which these people will be able to register their marriages in a little different manner from what they do, different even from the Mennonite custom. 1 think any difficulty of that nature will be got over.

In regard to taking homesteads commun ally, that is another objection. The hon. gentleman may be surprised to know that within the last six weeks more Doukhohors have taken up individual homesteads than iu all the previous time since they came to Canada. Not only have they taken up homesteads in their own villages, but quite a number of them are breaking away from their villages and going off and taking up homesteads among Canadians. At Swan River they have asked to be excluded from the colony, to go out of the communal system and start for themselves, just after they had acquired sufficient money to buy a horse and cow to start with. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is only one argument in favour of the communal system, in favour of settling foreigners in a colony, but that argument is a good one, and that argument has prevailed throughout Canada. The fact has been mentioned in another place, in Ottawa, to the prejudice of the Doukhobors ; but it is a strange thing that even iu older Canada the Scotch Highlanders like to get together, Frenchmen like to get together, where their language is spoken, and where their religion is taught. I do not blame them. We see the same thing among many nationalities except (perhaps those from the North of Ireland, the country from which my father came. Perhaps we do not flock together quite so well, because we are a little too belligerent. But -most all nationalities like to come together and settle in colonies. The same rule prevails all over this continent. The Moravians settle together in colonies, so do the Roumanians and the Hungarians. Every one of the foreign peoples brought -to the North-west in the early days have settled in colonies. Why ? Because they were poor, aud they have got to depend upon ouo another until they are rich enough to help themselves. One man cannot buy a team of horses, i but two men together can buy one ox each and put them together ; one man may not have enough money to buy a plough, hut as they get a little richer three or four of them can buy a reaping machine. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, that had that communal system prevailed a little more in '

the early days, among Anglo-Saxons, we would not have had so many Canadians leaving there to go to the Dnited States ? So with those who came from Ontario to the west with very little means. Then, as now, the implement agents had sweet mouths and oily tongues. These travelled throughout the west, and just as soon as a farmer had ten or fifteen acres of ground he was asked to buy a hinder, he was asked to buy a rake, and all the implements necessary to run a farm of ten times the size. They bought this, probably the crop failed, but the note was due, the interest on the note had accumulated, 12 per cent compounded year after year, the creditor got a judgment, the implement man came around and sold out the belongings that were not exempt under the law, he took the old machine back, and the consequence was there was that man struggling, there was no use of raising a crop next year, because it would he seized again, and the man, struggling against fate, concluded : I might as well quit, and quit they did in many cases. So many of them were quitting that the Manitoba and Territorial governments were obliged to make the very wide exemption under the law of which I spoke a few nights ago. If these farmers had done something similar to that which the Doukhohors have done, gone a little slower at first and worked a little more on the communal or co-operative plan, they would have been able to get along all right. The Doukhohors, as the Mennonites are doing now, as soon as they become possessed of sufficient means, will go into individual ownershij) to a large extent.

There is one more word that I wish to say in regard to the education of the Doukhobors. One of the difficulties that was encountered at first was, that the Doukhobors did not want to learn the English language. I asked Prince Hilkoff what he though the Doukhobors would he willing to dq in this respect, and he said that he thought about one-third of them would be willing to learn the English language at once, and that, with the balance, two-thirds, it would take some time. I asked Mr. Haul-tain, the premier of the North-west Territories, if he would be willing to provide schools for the one-third of these Doukhobors, and he said that they would be willing to provide these schools as soon as possible. As the result of the united efforts which were made by the Quakers in England, a young man, a graduate of Oxford, was sent out. He travelled amongst the Doukhobors, and is now endeavouring to secure funds for carrying on educational work. The Quakers of the United States have also contributed largely in that direction. In the I meantime there were two Canadian ladies who undertook the work. A young lady from Kingston, Miss Nellie E. Baker, and Eliza Varney, a fine old Quaker lady, who lives in Prince Edward county, came

up to tlie North-west, and started a school. They started a school in a tent which 1 loaned them. The children squatted on the grass. I would like to read a few extracts from a letter written by the young lady to me shortly before I came down here. She says :

But here were the children, all as ignorant of the English language as I of the Russian, waiting to be taught. We had not expected such a prompt response to our project. So my first experience as a teacher began under decidedly unique conditions, teacher and taught being without a single word in common. By signs and motions I got them seated in rows on the prairie grass of the tent floor-later we had plank benches-and holding up a pencil said ' one.' I could detect no apparent comprehension; then taking up another pencil said ' two,' and adding a third, 'three'; still no response, and my heart sank somewhat. However, I decided to repeat the method, and as I said ' one,' I noticed a look on a boy's face that told me he knew I was counting, and I saw him turn and speak to the others. Almost instantly they understood, and soon repeating after me, counted up to ten. Then making the figures on a large sheet of paper-that had to serve as a blackboard-they soon knew perfectly the

English numerals

All were very attentive and eager to learn. Some of these children came regularly from the village, Dtshenje, five long miles in all weathers. They came early; too. So I opened school at half-past eight daily, and when closing time came at four, I often thought I was the only tired one. So much of the teaching was of necessity oral that the six and a half hours a day for five and a half days each week I found rather trying.

At the first the school was visited by several of the older Doukhobor men, who, I apprehend, were present to satisfy themselves as to the nature and probable influence of the undertaking. Later this critical attitude gave way to a feeling of hearty approval and confidence

As to writing, which was done on slates in school and in ' scribblers ' for homework-of which seemingly they could not get too much-I must confess that it was often at least as good as my headlines. This shows that the Doukhobor has a strong eye for form, and certainly in the scrupulously artistic power in the

handling of strong colour effects

The manliness and independence of the Doukhobor character was shown when these poor villagers found that the school was entirely nonofficial, and my work wholly voluntary ; a committee of the men offered me remuneration, which, being declined, they expressed their gratitude. and told me through their spokesman, Constantine Plaxton, that they ' thanked me all

the day and all the night,'

The importance of some knowledge of English to the Doukhobors is apparent when it is shown that one who cannot understand is only able to get half wages, but apart from this there is a general desire to learn our tongue and to become Canadians. This view, formed in my visits to the villages near Good Spirit Lake, was confirmed when later I visited many villages to the south and north colony

When Mr. Barcroft came to the tent school at Good Spirit Lake, he was accompanied by M. Nicholas de Struve, the Russian consul to Canada at Montreal, and these gentlemen were good enough to express their gratification at finding in my school a ' going concern ' of considerable Mr. McCreary.

experimental importance, which, it was said, would throw practical light on the subject in hand

It does not require a very keen perception on the part of one who has had a welcome into hundreds of their homes to be assured that this is a community living up to high moral standard, and holding tenaciously to the simple tenets of Christian faith.

Tlmt is good enough evidence for me to believe, besides that which my own eyes taught me in four years, that these people are good people. At oue time I made up my mind that I would visit these people in their own homes. X was brought up in this country amongst the pioneer settlers on the Upper Ottawa, and I know what pioneer life is. I know what it is to build log houses, and X am in a position to judge as to what kind of a settler is necessary for a new country. I decided that I would not take any provisions with me, but that I would live with them as they lived. I made a trip to Swan river, over to Fort Felly, aud down to Yorkton, and slept five nights in their homes. I was .surprised' and astonished at the cleanliness of their places. 1 was surprised at the kind of log houses that they built. I have seeu very good log houses built in the early days here, and I have seen what were called first-class ' corner ' men, but I had never seen any log houses of which the corners were as neatly made, and in which the plastering was so neatly done, and on which the roofs were so well put on. I have never seen any log houses built by any Canadian builder equal to these houses. They had blended the clays used in the decoration of these bouses in such a way as to almost make you think that they were actually painted. There was another prejudice that they had at first. They would not have stoves in their houses, but they had large clay ovens, which they placed next the doors. When I said to them that they should have stoves, they at first said that they would bum out, but they quickly overcame that prejudice, and in two or three months there were a great many box stoves in use. As to their food, it is true there was no meat, but they had vegetables, onions. &e., and they made a very nice salad. They bad soup of rice and barley, which they took with bread, well baked. I found them most polite people, and the best tilings In the bouse they gave me. Their style of living was a little different from ours; they did not use the ordinary bedsteads but they had pillows made olf down and feathers which were taken out every day to be exposed to the fresh air, and in that they gave us a lesson in hygiene. I was as comfortable as I would be in a hotel. It is true that twenty or thirty occupied the same house. Their beds were arranged on platforms at the end of the wall, but they had neat curtains and bangers and you were just as private as you would be in a Pullman car. These people are most religious as regards their

food. Even in an hotel or rough boarding house, it was one of the noticeable features that they were not afraid to stand up before they partook of a meal to thank God in their own way for providing it, and after they had eaten they were not ashamed to do the same thing. I saw these people out through the west, and I say that at Yorkton, Swan River, and in other places where they are settled amongst the roughest class of men, they are thought a great deal of by 95 per cent of the people. There are a few cranks up there. There are some worse than cranks who do not want any one but themselves to go into that country. One of the greatest difficulties we had to face came from the rancher class who went there as so-called ranchers with 100 or 150 head of cattle, and they thought because they had taken up 100 acres-which a great many of them had not paid for although they had been there for fifteen years-they thought because they squatted upon that land and put up a small house and let their cattle roam over the entire prairie, that the country was sacred to themselves alone. Merchants in Yorkton told me that these so-called ranchers were not of much benefit to the country. It was true they raised these cattle, but they shipped them to the east and they did not even buy their supplies in the country, because they brought them in from eastern cities. I was told that every quarter section taken up by Galicians and Doukhobors was a source of wealth to the country and the trade had increased in such a manner that the business people saw the difference and wanted to get rid of the ranchers. I reasoned with some of these ranchers, and I said : Do you expect to tie up a half a township for the sake of your cattle V I told them : Go to Cypress Hills or to Maple Creek district for your ranching, for you have no right to say that this land which is suitable for mixed farming shall be retained for your benefit for ever, and that the Dominion government are not to get out of it what they should get out of it, because you claim that the country Is to be kept apart for men like you.

Now, Mr. Speaker, it is also said that these Doukhobors and Galicians were fed by the government. It is charged that in the first place they were brought in by the government, and then that they were fed by the government. Certain newspapers throughout the west and throughout the east too have told that lie so often that they have got to believe it themselves. They say it is peculiar of a man who is a pretty square liar that if he tells a lie often enough he gets to believe it is true. Notwithstanding that the story about the government feeding these immigrants has been denied time and time again, it has been repeated by every Conservative newspaper in the west and in the east. Why, Sir, not a single Galician or Doukhobor was ever 92

brought in by this government. They paid their own fares in good coin of the realm. It is true they were assisted by the Society of Friends, a Christian sect, one of the most Christian sects in Canada I believe; one of the most self-sacrificing religious denominations I have ever known, and I was very much surprised to hear the hon. gentleman from Lennox (Mr. Wilson) say anything disparaging to the Quakers. We have not very many Quakers in the west, but from the experience I have had in dealing with Quakers from Philadelphia, from Great Britain and from Canada, I think that if ever I should desire strongly to belong to any denomination, it would be that denomination. They are men whose religion consists in helping the needy, whose religion consists in taking out of their own pocket what they can spare and giving it to those who want it. That is a good enough religion for me. We see too little of it in our days.

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Some hon. MEMBERS

Hear, hear.

Mr. MeCREARY. I repeat that I was surprised to hear the member for Lennox (Mr. Wilson) cast a reflection upon the adherents to that religion. Now these people were never assisted by the Dominion in any way except that the ordinary bonus was paid as in the case of other immigrants. If I wished to occupy the time of the House 1 could refer to the bonus paid by the Conservative government. I could go back to the time when they paid two pounds sterling per head on some of the immigrants coming in here. I have with me the names of some of these immigrants and certainly they are not French, English or Irish; they sound very Polish. I will tell you the history of some of these, and I can tell you why they were unable to settle down permanently in the North-west. A number of these immigrants were brought out from Galicia in 1889. That country has a population of 7,000,000 people, 3,000,000 of whom are Roman Catholics and 4,000,000 of whom are Ruthenians who are interspersed with Germans, a number of whom were sent there about 104 years ago. A number of these people were brought out and settled in the North-west, and where were they settled, do you think ? They were settled in a country where it was known that a man could not live on mixed farming. There was no water. The government had sunk wells there and they could not find water. I refer to the settlement nine miles this side of Medicine Hat, south. However, the government settled these people there, and what has been the result ? They paid a very large bonus of $10 a head for those immigrants and here are some of the names. Konrad Gredi, Heinrich Yockeroth, Takob Kraushaar, Tehan Dochotke, Gottleib Fliller. What do hon. gentlemen think of those for Anglo-Saxon names ? The first thing the government had to do was to try and get them

water, and when they failed in that, these poor people had to haul water from the Saskatchewan river. The government gave them seed-grain the first year, hut there was no rainfall; the seed failed, and there was no crop. Some of them left. Some remained there and the following year the government advanced them seed-grain again as well as provisions to keep them from starving. Very large sums of money were expended in this way. Some of them left again, and finally every single settler was forced to leave that district and not one was left to tell the tale. All that money was wasted. And, Sir, the result has an injurious effect to-day on the settlement of that country. The seed-grain mortgage rests on these homesteads to-day, and when we send a settler in there to take up one of them, he is met with a seed-grain mortgage of $45 or $50 which he does not want to pay, and so he gets out. I point out to the Minister of the Interior iHon. Mr. Sifton) that this seed-grain mortgage null have to be wiped out. It is stopping the settlement of that district to-day, because men will not pay a debt which they did not incur. Now, Mr. Speaker, I will tell you where these immigrants went when they left the Medicine Hat district. This settlement took place in 1SS!) and 1890, and in 1893 the exodus from that country was so great that the people of Winnipeg became alarmed. I left Winnipeg with some members of the board of trade and drove out Portage avenue on the main road heading west, and in the space of four miles on that road, we met no less than twenty-nine wagons, prairie schooners as they are called, with a family loaded in on top* of the few belongings, and the teams were hauling these people from the great Canadian west to the United States. That is where these immigrants went. A few went to Northern Alberta, but the great number left for the United States and became good American citizens. That was the result of the policy of lion, gentlemen opposite. That was the policy which they pursued not only with regard to farmers, but in regard to other classes of immigrants. What about the Crofter Colony ? What about the great Imperial Colonization Company that settled at Yorkton, and about Churchbridge and about Saltcoats ? Millions of money was spent by the Imperial government to settle these people there. It is true they spoke our language, but they did not know anything about farming, and whom do you think the Conservative government sent to teach them ? They sent political party hacks who knew nothing about farming. These men said to the settlers : You have $600 grant on your quarter section which is advanced by the Imperial Colonization Company; for that $600 I will buy you a pair of oxen and I will buy you a plough and we deduct from that two years interest on the- $600. The stuff that was supplied these settlers was grossly over Mr. McCreary.

charged, and was in many cases absolutely unsuitable. In fact some of these men told me : We did not understand it then, but the oxen actually never were hitched up at all, and some of them were both for the off-side or both for the nigh-side. The men who should have had the best implements, oxen and equipments were supplied with oxen and implements that were not suitable. The result is that there are just nine families of Crofters left in that district, and they are destitute. It is not their fault, but it is the fault of hon. gentlemen opposite for putting men in charge who did not understand their business, and who cheated the people. A few of those people can be found to-day around East Selkirk, and will give evidence to this effect. It is the same in other parts of the country. To-day the town of Yorkton is thriving, and the hon. gentleman from West York who is interested in the York Colonization Company has become almost a rich man through the efforts of this government to bring in immigrants and he should be thankful.

One hon. gentleman said a few moments ago that there has been no change in the policy adopted by this government which made it differ from that of the late government-that the Minister of the Interior has inaugurated nothing new. Well, the best evidence of a change is in the feelings of the people of the west and in the progress of the country. One evidence of the change is in the fact that in Manitoba last year, although we had a very poor crop, one of the worst since the grasshopper plague of 1875 and 1876, you could scarcely hear a farmer or a merchant murmuring. Why ? Because they have got on their feet, and have confidence in the country, and they know that one year's failure cannot affect them as it would have done ten or fifteen years ago, when the failure of a crop caused many people to leave the country. They know that they have a government in power -who are administering the affairs of the country in a business way.

Does the hon. gentleman want any more evidence of the wisdom of the policy pursued by this government as contrasted with that of their predecessors ? Let him look at the city of Winnipeg itself. Stand on the post office corner, and within a distance of four or five hundred yards you will count more substantial warehouses which have been erected in the last four years than ever existed before that time. Take the case of Gault Bros., of Montreal, who a few years ago would not invest a dollar in brick and mortar in Winnipeg. Their confidence has become such that they have erected a $50,000 warehouse in Winnipeg. Geo. D. Wood Co., R. .1. Whitla, and others have done the same thing. In fact, thirty or forty warehouses averaging $30,000 in value, have been erected in Winnipeg in the last four years. Last January, on the train going west, Mr. Gault said to me : ' I do not know

anything about Sifton, but if his policy is such as to produce the development of the west that we have seen in the last three or four years, we ought to keep him where he is. It is a policy which has enabled us to double our business, not only in Winnipeg, but in many towns in the west where we formerly were afraid to trust our goods ; now we send them out with perfect confidence that we shall be paid.'

What about the value of property in and around Winnipeg ? i was for ten years, from 1880 to 1890, handling 80,000 acres of property, as manager for the late Sir John Schultz, and I know almost every quarter section of land around that city. I know that at that time it was impossible to sell much land even for the taxes. The municipalities frequently put up land for sale for arrears of taxes, and they had to adjourn the sale, because no one would give $30 for a quarter section. The municipality had to buy in the land, and on the day following the sale, I have bought a quarter section for $5, and got a tax deed for it. What is the case to-day ? The country around Winnipeg is filling up with settlers, largely from the United States, to such an extent that land which was valued a few years ago by the Hudson Bay Company and others at 50 cents to $2 per acre, is to-day worth from $7 to $8 an acre. This fact shows the difference between the policy of this government and the policy of the former government ; and the same condition of things prevails1 in many parts of the west. I venture to say that this year that there will be an unprecedented number of people from the United States coming into that country. To-day they are flocking into the country between Calgary and Edmonton at the rate of three special train-loads a day, in 'addition to the regular train service, and I believe 25,000 people from the United States will go in there this year. I showed Prof. Saunders a letter which I got a few days ago from Thos. A. Foster, a man who went from Kemptville and settled in Iowa and afterwards in North Dakota, where he resided for twenty years, and who sold his land in North Dakota for $30 an acre, and his land in Iowa for $50 an acre, and having a large number of sons, came back to Canada and the old flag. I asked him about his politics, and found him to be a good Conservative. He bought 2.240 acres of land within thirteen miles of Winnipeg, and he wrote to me the other day thanking me for a sample of seed oats which I had sent him, and for the care which the government were taking of new settlers, and he added :

' You will be surprised to know that I have already 90 lambs, some over 50 pounds.' He had brought in 800 sheep, and he said:

' This is better than I have done in raising sheep in the United States.' That is the best kind of immigration literature you can send out. I immediately had that letter 92*

sent to the United States, and I am going to use it there. The result of this policy will soon make itself known. It is just like advertising any business ; tell the people what you have got, and the results will follow. We have been practically only advertising our wares ; now the fruits will be shown. These men will write to their friends, and before long, instead of having

40.000 immigrants a year, we should more nearly approach the number of 440,000 who go to the United States annually. At all events, we ought to get into this country

200.000 people a year, and we will eventually, because we have now the right policy. I will just give you a list of the amounts of money which some of these people are bringing in.

Mr. Foster brought in $30,000. We have also received the following farmers from the State of South Dakota : Jotoan Benner and family, with a capital of $10,000; Peter Buller and family, with $25,000 ; Johan Boese and family, with $12,000 ; Cornelius Bayer and family, with $2,000 ; John Keaas-sen and family, with $1,000 ; Johan Goerzca and family, with $1,500 ; N. Sfvoble and family, with $3,000 ; Peter Paukratz and family, with $1,000 ; John Baerg and family, with $1,000 ; Isaac Adrian and family, with $1,200 ; N. Patzlaff and family, with $1,000. The Americans almost invariably bring in large sums of money, whereas during the time hon. gentlemen opposite were in power, some of even those few immigrants we got from the United States were the class of people known as professional movers,-a class of people who keep moving about and will not settle down. A story is told of some of them who settled in Red Deer district, that so accustomed were they to move, that their hens and chickens invariably once a year threw themselves on their back to have their legs tied preparatory to moving away.

I will not enlarge further upon this immigration problem, as it will probably be discussed later on. I would like, however, to quote one authority in support of the policy of the government. I think that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson) quoted the report of the Labour Union of the east-men who know as much about the Doukhobors as I do about the Fiji Islanders. But let me quote the report of the Winnipeg Board of Trade, which is composed of about four hundred citizens of Winnipeg, representing not only that city, but the entire Manitoba and the North-west. When you speak of the Board of Trade of Ottawa, you mean a body whose interests are almost exclusively centred in Ottawa, but the Board of Trade of Winnipeg is a body whose interests extend over the west-who are agents of the loan companies and the machinery companies and the other great concerns which have their ramifications all through the Territories. And if you will read the names

Topic:   SUPPLY-IMMIGRATION.
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April 12, 1901